Cell

[GSM123]

In units of millions.

Goku's Return

Spoiler

Cyborg Freeza (50%): 80
King Cold: 120

Vegeta: 2.5
Piccolo: 2.4
Gohan: 1.8
Humans: <1

SSJ Trunks: 187.5

SSJ Goku: 150

The Future

Spoiler

SSJ Gohan: 180

Future 17: 160
~ Full Power: 360

Future 18: 320

The Androids

Spoiler

SSJ Goku: 290
~ Sick: 145

SSJ Vegeta: 300
SSJ Trunks: 280

Piccolo: 200
~ Merged with Kami: 450

Android 20: 100
~ Post absorptions: 150

Android 19: 90
~ Post absorptions: 225

Cyborg 18: 400
Cyborg 17: 450
Android 16: 750

Cell: 330
~ Post absortions: 750

Cell

Spoiler

Cell (2nd form): 1,200
~ Full Power: 1,500

SSJ Vegeta: 1,200
~ 2nd Grade: 2,000

Cell (Complete): 1,975
~ Serious: 3,000

SSJ Trunks: 1,000
~ 2nd Grade (Suppressed): 1,920
~ 2nd Grade (Full Power): 2,880
~ 3rd Grade: 3,600

Cell Games

Spoiler

SSJ Goku: 6,000

SSJ Gohan: 7,200
~ SSJ2: 54,000

Cell: 6,750
~ Full Speed: 6,750
~ Full Power: 15,000
~ Hulked: 20,000
~ Post Self Destruct: 25,000

Cell Jrs: 3,750
SSJ Vegeta/Trunks: 3,000
Piccolo: 900

 

[SSJ2]

Piccolo: 37.5


Android 20: 25

Android 19: 10
~ Goku's Ki absorbed: 20

 

[GSM123]

Piccolo is overrated overhyped crap.

But what about the SSJs? Tried to find some middle ground between the little to no gains approach and the 2-3x stronger than Namek Goku, both seemed a bit too extreme for me. Plus I think Trunks oughta have some lead over Yardrat Goku if he’s a rival to Androids Goku without even half the time or resources to train.

On Green Man, scaled off his power based on how big I estimate the Kami merge boost to be, which is in turn scaled off how strong Piccolo might be post Kaio. He could be higher, but I don’t see him breaking the 100mil matk.

 

[SSJ2]

Why do you have SSJ Trunks > Yardrat Goku?

Your 3 year gap gains are about as minimalist as possible but they qork.

 

[GSM123]

I’ve been toying with the idea of Trunks being comparable or above Goku for a long time now, and I kind of noticed this Catch-22 with his 3 year gains.

1. On one hand, he couldn’t have powered up nearly as much as Goku or Vegeta. Trunks only trained for 8 months with no sparring partners or gravity chamber. Gohan’s been struggling to even get comparable to Goku for over a decade, and he’s got more experience than Trunks.

2. But if we assume Trunks is an absolute power house who can make huge gains alone (Exemplified by his progress in the 3 years between Gohan’s death and the time machine being completed), then why couldn’t he catch up to Goku earlier? And why isn’t he the strongest Saiyan by the time he returns to the past? He does have more experience with the form than any of the present Saiyans and is a hybrid.

So either he’s a weakling who somehow became strong, or he’s a powerhouse who somehow got whacky. Also, his sparring section doesn’t favour wither side: Goku implies he only looks impressive because Trunks held back, and Goku didn’t even show his hand (Literally, he only used a finger :mikey) vs Trunks for his power to be a factor.

 

[SSJ2]

2. But if we assume Trunks is an absolute power house who can make huge gains alone (Exemplified by his progress in the 3 years between Gohan’s death and the time machine being completed), then why couldn’t he catch up to Goku earlier? And why isn’t he the strongest Saiyan by the time he returns to the past? He does have more experience with the form than any of the present Saiyans and is a hybrid.

Trunks had less S-Cells

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Also, Trunks is by far the least experienced of the three first Super Saiyans when it comes to general combat and training, considering he was completely unaware to something considered obvious to Goku, Vegeta and Cell. It's understandable that he'd find it difficult to progress at a greater rate than Goku or Vegeta after catching up to Future Gohan, especially when the nature of his environment leaves him with little time for self-improvement beyond recklessly fighting #17 and #18.

 

[Animelover5487]

Wasn't the Kami fusion all but stated to be a two times multiplier? That only makes sense if Piccolo is already Super Saiyan tier before fusion.

 

[Mystic]

I agree with everyone.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Wasn't the Kami fusion all but stated to be a two times multiplier? That only makes sense if Piccolo is already Super Saiyan tier before fusion.

Not really. There was no statement on fusion with Kami necessitating a 2x boost for Piccolo in either the manga/anime or guidebooks to my knowledge, and all the statements of the two halves becoming whole doesn't really hold much weight when its apparent the Son of Katatsu prior to his split was at a level a lot higher than twice Kami or Piccolo Daimao's power.

 

[GSM123]

Also, Trunks is by far the least experienced of the three first Super Saiyans when it comes to general combat and training, considering he was completely unaware to something considered obvious to Goku, Vegeta and Cell. It's understandable that he'd find it difficult to progress at a greater rate than Goku or Vegeta after catching up to Future Gohan, especially when the nature of his environment leaves him with little time for self-improvement beyond recklessly fighting #17 and #18.

Well yeah that's the explanation I go with, but it leads me to calling bullshit on that Gohan > SSJ Trunks scene.

Alternatively, Trunks may have burned off his S-Cells catching up to Gohan and that's how he got 50+ times stronger in 3 years but made no gains in 8 months

Trunks had less S-Cells

Ngl this is actually a good point since Toriyama said peaceful environments harvest more S-Cells.

Can anyone become a Super Saiyan if they train?

It’s not like anyone can become a Super Saiyan through training and anger. In order to become a Super Saiyan, one’s body must contain something called “S-Cells”.2 Once these S-Cells reach a certain amount, a trigger such as anger will explosively increase the S-Cells and cause a change in the body; that’s Super Saiyan. Most Saiyans have some S-Cells, although not a great quantity. The reason why Goku and Vegeta’s children can become Super Saiyan relatively easily is probably because to a certain extent they inherited a lot of S-Cells, and also because Earth’s environment is gentler and easier to live in than Planet Vegeta.

Doesn't make much sense at first glance, but I suppose it probably has to do with the high stress and lack of rest they had living in Planet Vegeta. Same logic can apply on the Terminator future Trunks lives.

 

[GSM123]

Bump since I’ve remade the numbers. No more Namek Goku > Piccolo lads!

Though I’m still a bit torn apart about this. It’s easy to look the other way with the Freeza > Piccolo/Fake Androids, but there’s no reason for them to be this strong, 19 busting Vegeta’s lip aside.

There's also the other stuff on this list, but Piccolo is more important.

 

[SSJ2]

SSJ Yardrat Goku being weaker than Future Gohan is whack. Gohan was at a level where he died to the Androids. Goku being substantially weaker than that would not give Trunks hope, and make him say that he was "better than the rumours"or whatever the line was.

 

[Animelover5487]

SSJ Yardrat Goku > SSJ Goku (Trunks Estimation) > SSJ Future Trunks >= SSJ Future Gohan

 

[GSM123]

Who said the estimations are about power? Trunks didn’t even get to see Goku’s full power.

 

[SSJ2]

Why mention the sword and Freeza at all if it had nothing to do with power? Come on man.

 

[GSM123]

Surely Trunks would have mentioned his own power no? I mean all the sword did was take out a suppressed Freeza. Plus Goku flat out says Trunks wasn’t going all out on him.

If power were such a important factor here, why not just ask him to show his full power? Like how Karin did to see 50% Goku.

 

[SSJ2]

But he literally did. He asked him to turn Super Saiyan and then briefly tested him in combat (holding back or not).

 

[GSM123]

Asked him to turn into a Super Saiyan, and then Yamcha said he wasn’t even at full power yet.

A bit of sparring can gauge fighting ability as much as power. Remember how SSJ2 Goku did the same finger blocks with Trunks in DBS and then Whis said Trunks was the better of the two?

And Trunks doesn’t even say Goku is stronger than him. He only compares Goku’s to the rumours: Bulma put more emphasis on willpower, and albeit Gohan does talk about strength, Trunks doesn’t bring him up until after chatting with Goku. Trunks might not have expected a lot from Goku’s power since he’s just a SSJ1 like Gohan or Trunks, and one recently knew to the form. Hell, Trunks didn’t even think Goku could transform at all!

If you want to see one being impressed by someone’s power, there’s this:

Chapter: 335 (DBZ 141), P3.3
Goku: “For you, a Super Saiyan who instantly defeated Freeza and co., to call them monsters is really something…

 

[SSJ2]

Whether or not his fighting ki was displayed is completely irrelevant considering that Trunks' fighting ki was not on display either. Whatever the case, Trunks had a pretty clear idea of Goku's power in a quote that you've ignored.

Chapter: 335 (DBZ 141), P9.4
Trunks: “Knowing your strength, Goku, I have a little hope.”

Going back a bit, Trunks knew that Goku was supposed to defeat Freeza and Cold but the time discrepancy prevented it. Goku then confirmed to Trunks that he was going to take out Freeza for good:

So on top of the rumours about Goku, Trunks just had confirmation that Goku would have easily defeated both Freeza and his father. Would Goku be saying this if he was only equal to his Namek counterpart? He struggled to beat Freeza outright until his stamina drained. Even if he was unaware of his new power gains, it seems outrageous for him to be confident in "clobbering" both of them if his power was unchanged. Either way, Trunks should be expecting Goku to be much stronger than Freeza at this point, and he later confirms that Goku was greater than he expected, and that his strength had given him hope. To deflect all of this and say that Trunks was only considering Goku's character or whatnot is quite simply silly.

Remember, the original plan was for Goku to find the Androids weakness or to even go to the future to fight them head on.

I find it very unlikely that Trunks would have such faith in Goku being able to change the future if he wasn't at least on his own level. Fighters on Trunks/Future Gohan's level had already proved ineffective against the Androids. Goku should be at the very least on that level to provide hope.

If you want to see one being impressed by someone’s power, there’s this:

That has no bearing on Goku's relation to Trunks. Goku is shocked that there are opponents far beyond Trunks' scope and nothing more. No comparison between the two whatsoever here.