Cell's all out speed

[ahill1]

How do you see Cell's line of "What if I go all out, in speed at least?" ? Does he increase just his speed, or his power as well? Also, did he use full speed, or just the speed his current power output allowed him?

I think the latter question is simpler. Cell probably used only the speed that matched his suppressed powers.

But how about the former one? Based on the wording, it seems Cell just increased his speed, that is, there was no power up, he just matches the speed with what it should be. So:

Option A
Cell's chi: 100
~Power : 100
~Speed : 83
~Real speed : 100

And, therefore, gets no power up from the speed increase. That seems likely based on the wording, but the problem is that would put Cell's power way too much ahead of Goku's power, which doesn't seem implied. So we also got another option:

Option B
Cell's chi: 83
~Power : 83
~Speed : 83
~Speed increase : 100
~Power increase : 100
~Now current chi goes to : 100

That seems to be batter matched with Goku vs Cell, but it's unlikely according to the wording.


Thoughts?

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I like Option A the best. I always saw him fighting Goku with the speed he thought was necessary, but decided to use it to its fullest extent when fighting Gohan. It just don't see his power going up there.

 

[ahill1]

I like Option A the best. I always saw him fighting Goku with the speed he thought was necessary, but decided to use it to its fullest extent when fighting Gohan. It just don't see his power going up there.

So Cell's power (vs Goku) was way bigger than Goku's?

When a fighter says he'll increase his power, then you assume he'll increase his speed too, so why when he says he'll increase his speed you don't assume power goes up as well?

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Option A IMO.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I like Option A the best. I always saw him fighting Goku with the speed he thought was necessary, but decided to use it to its fullest extent when fighting Gohan. It just don't see his power going up there.

So Cell's power (vs Goku) was way bigger than Goku's?

When a fighter says he'll increase his power, then you assume he'll increase his speed too, so why when he says he'll increase his speed you don't assume power goes up as well?

Yes. I don't believe they're that close. Cell was already much faster than Goku.

I don't believe so. When Reacoom was fighting Vegeta, he yelled "Speed Up" and got a lot faster. Since we know Reacoom can't control his power like Ginyu, we have to assume his power remained the same even though his speed increased.

 

[Tapion]

There's nothing suggest Cell's power had gone up, so i go with Option A.

 

[sei'taer]

Option A

Cell was only using enough speed to put him slightly faster than goku.

 

[ahill1]

Yes. I don't believe they're that close. Cell was already much faster than Goku.

But that'd imply a pretty big difference between Cell's power and Goku's, since we'd have:

Cell (power) = Cell (all out speed) ~ Gohan SSJ >> Cell (speed, vs goku) > Goku SSJ

It's hard to see that difference when Cell was having fun and said they were well matched.

I don't believe so. When Reacoom was fighting Vegeta, he yelled "Speed Up" and got a lot faster. Since we know Reacoom can't control his power like Ginyu, we have to assume his power remained the same even though his speed increased.

So when someone say "I'll show you my true power", you assume his speed didn't increase as well?

In the fight against Cui, Vegeta stated that if his power increased, then his speed also increased.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I don't think the fight was that close. After Goku teleported behind Cell and kicked him, you could see the battle shift into Cell's favor. He was too busy having fun instead of trying to finish Goku, but he looked noticeably faster and was knocking Goku around without an issue. The only time it really looked close was after Cell regenerated.

When someone says they're going to show their true power, it means they're going to fight with everything. Cell's emphasis was on speed, not power. The situation perfectly mirrors the Reacoom example where we see an increase in speed with no noted power increase.

Vegeta was basically telling Kiwi he was much faster now that he was much stronger. Cell was already stronger than Goku and fast enough to blitz him at his current level. Gohan simply made him use more speed. Goku was quick to note that Gohan's Chi didn't go down when Cell knocked him down, so I find it odd that Cell would raise his power and not one person would comment on it.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

I don't take this true speed thing anymore seriously than Piccolo saying he'll show Kuririn a little bit of his true power or Freeza IIRC saying similar things. It's just like saying a taste of my true-speed.

Option B

 

[ahill1]

I don't think the fight was that close. After Goku teleported behind Cell and kicked him, you could see the battle shift into Cell's favor. He was too busy having fun instead of trying to finish Goku, but he looked noticeably faster and was knocking Goku around without an issue. The only time it really looked close was after Cell regenerated.

Right after both of them powering up, Goku landed a 4-attack combo on Cell, who said the fight is no fun unless the opponents are well-matched:

Good, good! This is how it should be! It's no fun unless you're well-matched

And that sequence of Cell speed blitzing Goku really didn't show a gap way bigger than Vegeta vs Zarbon, for instance.

When someone says they're going to show their true power, it means they're going to fight with everything. Cell's emphasis was on speed, not power

When someone says his power increased it means everything, but when someone says his speed increased it only means speed? Seems a bit arbitrary.

The situation perfectly mirrors the Reacoom example where we see an increase in speed with no noted power increase.

Recoome could have increased his powers when he said "speed up", I think he only noted speed because he'd dodge Vegeta's attack, so speed was the main reason there. You cannot have speed above his own power, how do you take speed from nowhere? The Butta case is more like an anomaly imo.

Vegeta was basically telling Kiwi he was much faster now that he was much stronger. Cell was already stronger than Goku and fast enough to blitz him at his current level. Gohan simply made him use more speed. Goku was quick to note that Gohan's Chi didn't go down when Cell knocked him down, so I find it odd that Cell would raise his power and not one person would comment on it.

Vegeta said "If my power increase...doesn't my speed increase along with it?", clearly indicating they go hand in hand.

If Cell only increased speed to match his current power, then it'd mean his strength was way above Goku's.

I don't see the need to note Cell chi went up, when that wasn't enough to severely hurt Gohan. Piccolo's power wasn't noted to decrease after Imperfect Cell's beatdown, even though we saw him struggling to get up. Everything doesn't need to be stated.

 

[ekrolo2]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume he just increased one of his abilities and not all of them, I doubt Gohan would've survived if that wasn't the case.

Lets say Gohan is a 7.5 at max power while Cell is a 10. He's using his 10 speed but delivering only 7.5 level attacks if that makes any sense.

 

[ahill1]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume he just increased one of his abilities and not all of them, I doubt Gohan would've survived if that wasn't the case.

Lets say Gohan is a 7.5 at max power while Cell is a 10. He's using his 10 speed but delivering only 7.5 level attacks if that makes any sense.

Cell probably only used the speed his current level allowed him. When chasing Imperfect Cell, Tenshinhan stated that they cannot come fast enough if they suppress their chi:

Th-this is hopeless...! It detects our chi and it runs... And we can't come fast enough if we suppress our chi.

 

[ekrolo2]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume he just increased one of his abilities and not all of them, I doubt Gohan would've survived if that wasn't the case.

Lets say Gohan is a 7.5 at max power while Cell is a 10. He's using his 10 speed but delivering only 7.5 level attacks if that makes any sense.

Cell probably only used the speed his current level allowed him. When chasing Imperfect Cell, Tenshinhan stated that they cannot come fast enough if they suppress their chi:

Th-this is hopeless...! It detects our chi and it runs... And we can't come fast enough if we suppress our chi.

Still, as you said, the wording doesn't really match up with an overall power increase and I don't believe the others noted Cell powering up any, the series usually comments on that kind of stuff.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Right after both of them powering up, Goku landed a 4-attack combo on Cell, who said the fight is no fun unless the opponents are well-matched

That was the best thing he did before the Warp KMHMH.

And that sequence of Cell speed blitzing Goku really didn't show a gap way bigger than Vegeta vs Zarbon, for instance.

It showed that Goku couldn't keep up with him, though, which is the main point. Goku watched him rush right at him and he couldn't counter anything he did. Cell had a clear advantage over Goku, which was noted by both Vegeta and Roshi. It really wasn't that close.

When someone says his power increased it means everything, but when someone says his speed increased it only means speed? Seems a bit arbitrary.

It isn't really:

Cell: “You’re a quick little brat…! How about I go all-out, in speed at least?”

Cell: “Well then, I’ll show you…! My fearsome true power…!"

Unless you're going to say those statements are identical, it isn't arbitrary. Transforming or increasing your power generally raises everything unless it's a special case like Grade 3. Trunks was too slow to catch Semi-Cell and needed to transform to Grade 2 to catch up to him, for example.

Recoome could have increased his powers when he said "speed up", I think he only noted speed because he'd dodge Vegeta's attack, so speed was the main reason there. You cannot have speed above his own power, how do you take speed from nowhere? The Butta case is more like an anomaly imo.

There's no reason to assume he did. Butta said beings that can raise their powers without transforming are quite rare--with Reacoom saying they're (Gohan and Krillin) pretty fun right afterwards. Reacoom can't change his power, nor does anything hint at this. The only thing Freeza's men (sans Ginyu) can do is change their effort. Reacoom saw Vegeta's blast coming towards him and raised his speed to get right behind Vegeta. That's it.

This isn't the first time someone was shown to hold-back speed:

Goku: “You’re a lot faster than before…! You’ve been suppressing your speed up until now.”

We've seen guys pull their punches and suppress their power all throughout the story. I don't see why there's an issue when it comes to speed. Goku says that Tien was suppressing his speed (not power) in battle. That alone shows that your speed and power can be controlled. Raising your speed alone does not need to bring about an increase in power.

Vegeta said "If my power increase...doesn't my speed increase along with it?", clearly indicating they go hand in hand.

And yet there are clear examples shown well after that statement was made to prove the contrary.

If Cell only increased speed to match his current power, then it'd mean his strength was way above Goku's.

Cell was comfortably ahead of Goku. Nothing in that battle outside of a single statement made by Cell before he showed dominance. Cell wanted to fight Goku because he was supposedly the strongest, and even rightfully assumed that Vegeta and Trunks wouldn't be anywhere close to his level. That's why he wanted to continue fighting Goku; not because Goku was really close to his power.

I don't see the need to note Cell chi went up, when that wasn't enough to severely hurt Goku. Piccolo's power wasn't noted to decrease after Imperfect Cell's beatdown, even though we saw him struggling to get up. Everything doesn't need to be stated.

Because losing his arm didn't deplete a lot of his Chi. When #16 ripped off Cell's tail, Cell said it was an easy amount of flesh to regenerate. No reason to assume the arm would be any different. Piccolo also said he took Cell's power gain into consideration and knew he was still more powerful than Cell. Everything doesn't need to be stated, but using a single statement from Vegeta to correlate with everything afterwards isn't necessary, either.

 

[Tapion]

I doubt Toriyama was following any kind of rule when he wrote those "power-speed statements." That's proven by the fact Piccolo doubted Gotenks's speed, but not his power.

 

[ekrolo2]

I doubt Toriyama was following any kind of rule when he wrote those "power-speed statements." That's proven by the fact Piccolo doubted Gotenks's speed, but not his power.

TBF that is the Boo arc where Goku, Gohan and Vegeta are good enough to serve as power sources for Boo but are weak enough for Pui-Pui to kick their asses

Or how Base Saiyan's are above Piccolo yet Goku & Vegeta are barely stronger than Gohan was at the Cell Games and SS Goku got his ass kicked by the Cell Jrs.

 

[Tapion]

Goku was heavily weakened though.

 

[ekrolo2]

Goku was heavily weakened though.

Yes... as a Super Saiyan, so unless you're going to tell me Base Goku > Tired SS Goku > Piccolo, that doesn't really work with the Boo arc at all.

 

[ahill1]

That was the best thing he did before the Warp KMHMH.

Not only this, right after Cell speed blitzing and punching him, Goku also dodged Cell's puch and kicked him upwards, to which each of them dodged each other blasts. Cell admitted he was having so much fun and was so excited he didn't want to end the fight with an out of bounds defeat:

Later, Goku's blasts were even able to make Cell put up a barrier. That really doesn't make sense if there's a big difference in power.

It showed that Goku couldn't keep up with him, though, which is the main point. Goku watched him rush right at him and he couldn't counter anything he did. Cell had a clear advantage over Goku, which was noted by both Vegeta and Roshi. It really wasn't that close.

He could dodge Cell's punch and kick him upwards. If I'm seeing well, Cell even has his arms in the place Goku kicked him, showing he wasn't unharmed by it either.

Unless you're going to say those statements are identical, it isn't arbitrary.

You're arguing speed and power don't go hand in hand, so if you increase power why would it increase speed as well?

Transforming or increasing your power generally raises everything unless it's a special case like Grade 3. Trunks was too slow to catch Semi-Cell and needed to transform to Grade 2 to catch up to him, for example.

Yet increasing speed doesn't raise power? If you increase speed alongside with power, you should be able to increase power alongside with speed as well. Doesn't make sense otherwise.

There's no reason to assume he did. Butta said beings that can raise their powers without transforming are quite rare--with Reacoom saying they're (Gohan and Krillin) pretty fun right afterwards.

You just said increasing power raises speed as well, so increasing speed is also something strange by the Ginyus' standards.

Nappa, who also couldn't change his battle power, also showed to be faster and stronger after regaining his cool. Freeza's 1st form was also seemingly doing a power up http://mangafox.me/manga/dragon_ball/v25/c101/8.html, even though Vegeta showed surprise at 2nd form Freeza being able to control his power, implying what Freeza did before wasn't the same thing:

No need to argue over something so inconsistent through the Saiyans and Freeza saga.

We've seen guys pull their punches and suppress their power all throughout the story. I don't see why there's an issue when it comes to speed. Goku says that Tien was suppressing his speed (not power) in battle. That alone shows that your speed and power can be controlled. Raising your speed alone does not need to bring about an increase in power.

Well, the Tenshinhan example is a good one, but I think his chi went up as well when showing his true speed and the speed reference was mainly because that was their talking at that moment.

Goku's weights were also what restricted his speed and when he took off it, Tenshinhan only noted a speed increase by saying "I didn't think even you could be this fast". Yet we know his battle power also increases alongside with speed by taking off the weights (battle power from 334 to 416).

Cell was comfortably ahead of Goku. Nothing in that battle outside of a single statement before he showed dominance.

It does, Cell also stated he was having fun and didn't want to end the fight with an out of bounds, which indicates the fight was even more fun than he expected.

Cell wanted to fight Goku because he was supposedly the strongest, and even rightfully assumed that Vegeta and Trunks wouldn't be anywhere close to his level.

He could also suppress himself to Vegeta's level and have a good fight with him. It shows power wasn't the only factor that led him to praise Goku that much, but also by the fact that this latter is a seasoned warrior, this was stated by Cell. But I doubt he'd have this fun against Goku if they weren't close to a certain extent/well-matched, which was exactly what Cell said.

Because losing his arm didn't deplete a lot of his Chi. When #16 ripped off Cell's tail, Cell said it was an easy amount of flesh to regenerate. No reason to assume the arm would be any different. Piccolo also said he took Cell's power gain into consideration and knew he was still more powerful than Cell. Everything doesn't need to be stated, but using a single statement from Vegeta to correlate with everything afterwards isn't necessary, either.

I'm not talking about this instance, I'm talking about Piccolo (post Kami) vs Imperfect Cell (post absorptions). Piccolo took a beat from Cell and struggled to get up, yet #16 didn't note a severe depletion of power: