Which just goes to say Cell had an advantage, which, again, I never denied. It'd be pointless if Zarbon continued fighting Vegeta in his handsome state, in spite of the gap between them not being all that great. The same with Kaioken Goku vs 18k Vegeta.
Problem with that. Goku isn't Zarbon and Cell isn't Vegeta. The numbers simply don't apply because it's a different battle altogether. That's not an excuse to have a small difference between them.
Again, I'm not arguing about a hypothetical full power Cell not being too much ahead of FPSSJ Goku. I'm talking about the level Cell used, which is what is relevant to this discussion.
The level of power Cell used was clearly superior to Goku. Check. The level of speed Cell used was clearly superior to Goku. Check. Cell only felt it was necessary to go all-out in speed because that's where Gohan was besting him in. Check. Power isn't mentioned anywhere.
It reflects just fine, because the fight also doesn't show there's a pretty big gap either. Like I said, Cell aknowledged Goku was putting up a fun fight and couldn't go unharmed of the fight. It really doesn't show us a Vegeta vs Dodoria type of dominance, where Dodoria was pretty hopeless and couldn't touch Vegeta at all. That was ~83% gap.
You keep mentioning these battles on Namek that have nothing to do with this battle. Dodoria is not only weak, but he's a bitch that sucks at fighting and has 0 skill. It's not a comparable situation whatsoever. Goku being a "seasoned warrior" can do things more effectively than someone totally lacking in skill. Goku doesn't need to be hopelessly weaker, but he's definitely weaker. And by that, if they fought 10 times, Goku goes 0/10 because he can't beat Cell in any area.
Which just reinforces Cell was having fun based on there being a certain proximity between their powers and if he used his real speed it'd turn out in a boring fight, in spite of Goku being a seasoned warrior.
That has more to do with Cell intentionally fighting Goku than Goku realistically being close to suppressed Cell. He's clearly outmatched. How are you that close and yet definitely can't win? Because Cell isn't just a little stronger than him.
We're discussing power gaps here and my original post revolves around power gaps.
This was answered. Option A was what the Manga showed. Option B is an assumption that isn't shown in this scenario.
Which doesn't indicate they weren't somewhat close at the level Cell was using. Besides, Roshi knew Cell had yet room for composure and they probably expected Cell having more power in the tank.
Those are assumptions. Roshi and Vegeta are speaking on the fight. It obviously means Goku was shown as the weaker of the two. So whatever "fairly close" means, Goku is clearly weaker. If he's obviously weaker and definitely has no chance of winning, they're not close at all.
Goku even said to Gohan he doesn't know if Cell used all of his powers.
Which doesn't necessarily mean anything. Goku said Cell wasn't beatable unless Gohan unleashed his dormant power. The same Goku was shown to be rather shocked at Cell's full-power. This further adds to the fact that Goku isn't close to Cell because even his more powerful son couldn't beat Cell at his current level.
Like I said, this instance of "fairly close" isn't as close as you want to believe. If you're clearly outmatched with no hope of winning, you're not that close at all.
Except the other statements don't contradict Cell's and work just fine with the fight.
Uh, yes. Yes, they do. Cell stayed ahead of Goku the entire battle and Vegeta admits that Goku was definitely going to lose. That's clear. What Cell says at the beginning means very little because the proceeding battle shows that Cell's held-back speed (at his suppressed level, not full-power) is enough to blitz Goku without him being able to stop Cell, and Cell wins pretty much every encounter up close. Cell's stronger, Cell's faster. Goku could never beat Cell at any point. Ergo, they're not that close.
I'm talking about Goku being close to a certain extent, not to the point where Cell superiority over Goku in power would be comparable to Gohan's superiority over his dad in speed.
Close to certain extent doesn't change the fact that he was pretty outclassed. That's what it comes down to.
Which doesn't contradict Cell's statement of them being somewhat close/well matched.
Then your "somewhat close" means obviously weaker. Not a little weaker.
The battle and proceeding quotes contradicts Cell's statement. Goku has nothing in the way of power or speed to establish that he could really hang with Cell outside of teleport, KMHMH, and unleashing a barrage of Chi-blasts on an unsuspecting Cell. Without the element of surprise, Goku sucked in that battle.
They can be close with Cell being the superior one, no problem with it. In the 22nd Budôkai, Tenshinhan also opted by blowing up the arena because it'd be pointless keep fighting head to head against Goku. It doesn't mean, however, that Ten couldn't give Goku a challenge in a head to head combat.
By Tien's own admission, Goku embarrassed him. He knew it was pointless to fight him directly because Goku would body him. That's really what it comes down to. Tien had flight, skill, and an array of techniques to keep the battle respectable. Goku had fighting skill and enough power to not get bitchslapped in one go. That isn't close at all; just closer than everyone else.
I'm not nitpicking anything. Just correcting you that Vegeta didn't flat out state 2 steps, he was unsure about Cell being one or two steps ahead of Goku.
The fact that Cell being 2 steps ahead of Goku opens the door to the difference between them. It's still a nitpick because you obviously know what Vegeta is trying to say here.
Handsome Zarbon would also sure lose to 24k Vegeta.
Pointless to continously cite. It's a whole different ballgame compared to what's being discussed. Fighting skill, experience in fighting close battles (Zarbon and Dodoria don't have that experience, obviously) and a plethora of things could come into play there. You keep mentioning that battle because you're too focused on numbers. This is exactly why I
hate power levels because you're not even trying to look beyond it.
Besides, like I said, they probably knew Cell had more power in the tank, while Goku couldn't even hold his own against a mini Cell. Doesn't really contradict anything.
This is an assumption. One which you can't prove. What I can prove is that Suppressed Cell couldn't be beaten by anything less than Gohan's dormant power at that point. Cell>Gohan>Goku. All you're left with is assumptions on what certain characters think and a statement made by Cell that's all but overwritten once the fight is over.
Except that, like I said, the fight doesn't contradict that statement at all. Cell made that statement after taking those hits from Goku and when he decided to teke out with the ring rule, he even admitted he didn't think he'd have this much fun, which came after Goku could kick him and dodge his punch (without using any kind of special attack).
And that says absolutely nothing other than Goku makes for a fun opponent. Goku had to resort to surprise attacks for a reason because he wasn't capable of much else. They're so close that Cell basically said he didn't give a shit about Goku's teleport because his own speed was good enough. Oh, and Goku got blitzed quite a few times. Slower and weaker.
That doesn't contradict his previous statement at all, on the other hand, it just reinforces how they were close to a certain extent at the level Cell was using. That's basically the end of their scuffle before Goku using the KHH.
Is that why Cell's held-back speed is enough to shit on Goku? Is that why Goku needs the element of surprise to do anything worthwhile in the battle?
Which would be irrelevant if Goku wasn't close to him, just like Vegeta's attack didn't work with Perfect Cell nor Super Perfect Cell.
Yeah, except Cell's power took a huge dip at that point. He just regenerated and used up a lot of his Chi from doing that alone. Goku was also winded, but regeneration takes up more energy to complete. Cell's power never dipped, or at least dipped significantly taking the Final Flash like it did taking the KMHMH up close. Cell was in a more vulnerable predicament when he took Goku's blasts. Still was weaker and still would've likely lost had he ate a senzu and fought Cell again.
Now that I think about it, the idea of Goku being close to Cell makes even less sense. If, according to you, Cell truly believed Goku close to his power, why is the damage from Goku's Chi-blasts "surprisingly large", then? If the only reason it did damage was because Goku was close to him, then there's absolutely no reason for Cell to be taken aback by the damage inflicted from said attack. This would've been pretty obvious.
Also, again, Gohan>Goku and Goku doesn't believe Gohan can win without tapping into his dormant power. Have fun with that.
I gave you this exaples and you just ignored them.
I explained more thoroughly above. It also adds to why the idea of Goku being close to Cell based on what Cell said ludicrous.
Besides, an attack can easily be a punch or a kick, not just something that amplifies his power:
Why are you citing these random examples? Cell acknowledged Goku's attack for what it was and said the damage was surprisingly large. There's nothing more to add there.
He made a distinction in both statements, yet you assume a character also increases his speed when he only mentions power.
Like I said, "true power" or "full-power" is a size fits all statement. Do you realize how dumb "full-power and speed" or "true power and speed" sounds in this context? They don't need to mention it because the reader should be able to understand exactly what that means. Likewise with the story specifically citing speed over everything else. You're making this needlessly complicated.
I said that in responce to your "nobody noted Cell increased his powers", which doesn't have to be always stated.
I've posted way more than the Cell example to show a power increase wasn't noted when someone raised their speed. Apparently that isn't enough to convince you.
Explain why it's meaningless. "If my power increases, doesn't it mean my speed increses along with it?". I don't see why it's not a vice-versa situation.
Because the story has constantly went out of its way to cite speed without mentioning a power increase. Vegeta's statement is saying his power increase brought about a speed increase. That's an example of both coinciding with one another. Simply because one character makes a remark about his speed rising with his power doesn't mean it needs to apply to every single character afterwards. That's silly. And quite a few instances in the very same saga prove this wrong, anyway.
So you agree that more power brings more speed, which is a contradiction to what you said right afterwards
You are simply not understanding what I'm saying at all. I've tried to explain it and you still read it how you want. I've constantly cited the Grade 3 transformation, Cell's transformation as perfect examples of more power not always bringing more speed. The fact that it's because of muscles doesn't change that. It's showing that additional power doesn't always make you move faster.
Why the heck would Tien assume Goku's speed didn't change if power and speed increasing together is a given?
Why the heck would Piccolo even begin to believe he could outrun 3rd form Freeza when he was clearly weaker?
Why the heck would Goku be able to move faster than Ginyu when his capabilities are below Ginyu's?
Because speed is its own thing. You're choosing to hold Vegeta's statement over everything that pinpoints speed as its own thing for whatever reason.
Gohan couldn't keep his true power for long enough to make a difference, while oob could do it for longer than Gohan, despite only being able to do it while in a fit of rage.
It wasn't just about his enraged power. Piccolo said Gohan was getting better control of his Chi when they were sparring.
My point when saying that moving faster requires chi control was to show that being fast has to do with chi. You can't access one without picking the other.
Utilizing your Chi to get better access to your speed, yes. Raising your power to do this? Notta. Reacoom is a perfect example that you seemingly continue to overlook for whatever reason.
The speed being the issue is my main point here. Cell couldn't catch Gohan, so mentioning a speed increase makes more sense here.
That has nothing to do with the others taking time to note a change in power or not. Simply because Cell decided to mention his speed doesn't omit everyone else around him.
I don't know why you say "in face of everything else", when nothing contradicts them being well-matched at the level Cell used.
Everything contradicts it. One statement that goes against the battle itself, Goku's inability to win up close, and needing to resort to surprise attacks says it. Vegeta confirms Goku was clearly outmatched and had no chance to win. That supersedes anything Cell has to say on the matter.
Well, Vegeta was confident he could defeat Freeza and could save Gohan from Freeza's death beam. Even Goku was surprised Vegeta was losing so fast and wonder if Freeza was that strong, which doesn't seem right if Freeza was initially at a level where he could also make this fool out of Vegeta
Goku's statement further shows that Freeza
never raised his power. The only thing Freeza did was increase his speed to show Vegeta he was still too slow to keep up.
Well, Goku could've momentarily upped his speed when outspeeding Ginyu, so fast it was too quick for Ginyu's radar to trick.
Goku didn't momentarily outspeed Ginyu. He stayed above him the entire time until Jheese stopped his momentum. Furthermore, we're given no reason to assume bursting and keeping your speed at a certain rate is something that can be hidden from the scouter. That's entirely different than raising your power to unleash an attack before returning to a suppressed state. What you're suggesting is something else altogether.
At the beginning of Namek saga, Kuririn and Gohan had to hide their chi from Vegeta and the other and flying faster would just turn them easy to be tracked down, so flying faster is also easily detectable by the scouters.
I know. That's why I don't agree with your suggestion about Goku. He was moving fast without an end in sight.
Its not different when it's a full nelson, similar to the Raditz situation. Of course strength also takes a hole on it as well, as seen when Cell could easily get out of #16's full nelson, but at that time Raditz was still clearly superior to both Goku and Piccolo.
The fact that Raditz was heavily automatically makes the different situation. You can't just overlook that because you want to assume they're the same.
Goku just noted Ginyu was too strong, it doesn't mean it's the only reason though. Piccolo also noting Vegeta was going to lose due to his chi's depletion also doesn't mean it was solely the reason for Vegeta's loss.
It's the only reason stated. Saying there's an additional reason isn't a fact. Ginyu's power is incredible and Goku can't get loose. The only way out is by using more power to get out of it. Yeah, I'd say it's about power.
The #18 example doesn't even make sense because Piccolo
can't sense her. All he has to go by is what Vegeta's doing, and what he saw was Vegeta getting his attacks blocked by her while losing energy. So if using an example where Piccolo clearly was unaware of her real capabilities is supposed to be a similar occurrence, then I'm not seeing it.
It does, barring some strange situations, like Trunks SSJG3.
Prove Cell's power was raised along with his speed with something that isn't an assumption. Prove that Reacoom's power had risen when he increased his speed. Once you do that, then you can say it does. Until then....
That was before Vegeta noted Goku's power was steasily raising when he was charging at Nappa.
Uh, okay? Vegeta never retracted his statement. Krillin's statement was still made well after that fact.
That was when he thought Goku's power was 5k, so of course he laughed at the idea of him challenging them. Nappa stated the reading of 5k Goku was wrong, so it's certain that he underestimate his overall power, but the idea of him going to punch Goku in a level below his fight against the Z-senshi doesn't make much sense.
It doesn't need to make sense. It literally happened. Goku was faster right there. Come up with any explanation you prefer.
"He's finalling coming forward, huh? Even that big guy is scared of him."
You realize the statement is pretty much the same, right?
"Even that big guy is scared of him."
Uh, Krillin noted that "even the big guy" was fearful of Vegeta. He obviously didn't take this into consideration beforehand, or the big guy being scared of Vegeta would've been fucking obvious.
That doesn't imply it was the only time he saw Nappa afraid. So Piccolo's analysis isn't irrelevant here.
Read the statement again. Nappa being scared of Vegeta is regarded as something unexpected by Krillin. Yes, the Piccolo analysis is hella irrelevant here.
So what you are saying is, Nappa (calmed down) = Nappa (vs Z warriors) >>> Nappa (vs Goku)? Is that right?
More like, Calm Nappa>Nappa at any point beforehand
Vegeta didn't say anything about Nappa using more power. He told him he can beat Goku if he calms down. That's it.
Yet you just said raising their battle power was something Recoome couldn't do.
Because he can't. Or will you ignore that the guy standing right next to him said it was rare to do this without transforming?
Being able to raise his power is something strange to their standards
Because it is.
Yet they apparently did the same on Earth. It's just inconsistent.
Then you probably shouldn't bring it up. I didn't say anything about Nappa or Vegeta.
I'm going by Vegeta's statement of Freeza's 2nd form knowing how to control his battle power
I know what you're doing. I don't understand why you continue to bring up something that's obviously a reflection of strange writing, though.
which just seems nonsense if Vegeta did the same thing in his 1st form.
So is measuring 3rd form Freeza's latent power. Why can't you just understand what bad writing is and stop expecting a reasonable answer to explain stupid shit in this story? Ginyu can control his power and raise it whenever. If we really, really, really take this Vegeta crap seriously, then Freeza can freely admit he won't use full-power against Nail, but he can't control his power. Shit is stupid, man.
Unless you also think Vegeta's statement to Cui is nonsense because he did it on Earth as well.
Vegeta showed a lesser power to throw Kiwi off to trick him because he raised it right after. The situation isn't remotely comparable to this 2nd form Freeza nonsense. Ginyu is regarded as nothing to Freeza, but you're suggesting that he can control his power and 1st form Freeza can't. It's ridiculous and I don't even want to bother exploring that possibility
So I could easily say Freeza had a resting state in his first form and just chose to put more power on his 2nd form.
Fine by me. Doesn't really change much. Piccolo's statements seem to imply the increase in power was humongous in both instances:
Piccolo: “That large ki has become even more absurdly large! Is this ‘Freeza’ finally starting to move?!”
Piccolo: “Freeza’s power rose all at once…! I’m coming, Gohan!”
For some reason, Vegeta's one statement has to take away from this because he's more credible in understanding how Chi-manipulation works compared to guys who've utilized it for yrs.
Why cannot Freeza have powered up from a resting state as well?
That's possible. I just don't see why you want to needlessly complicate things simply because Vegeta says something different than everyone else.
Exactly my point. The story isn't clear on this stuff.
Yeah, but you brought this stuff up. I didn't because it's too convoluted to try and make sense of.
Isn't random, not at all. Vegeta specifically made note of Freeza's ability to change his chi when he was in the 2nd form. Unless you also think Vegeta's statements of him learning to control his battle power on Earth is also random.
You should probably understand the context of the statement to Kiwi:
Kui: “Haahhahhah, are you blind? Look at your scouter! My battle power is clearly higher than yours!”
Kui: “Looks like you’ve gotten worse. With that battle power, you have no chance of winning.”
Scouter reading says Kiwi>Vegeta. A prime example of relying on the readings of scouters being a bad move.
[quote[Vegeta: “Did you call us rivals? Kukkukkuku…Well then, I’ll show you something…An interesting thing that I learned from the locals when I went to Earth…[ ] How to control my battle power!”[/quote]
Vegeta is going to show Kiwi that relying on the scouter is careless because the power reading is fake. That's the whole reason why Vegeta told Nappa to lose the scouter, and why Nappa said Raditz lost because he was a weakling that relied on the scouter readings. Vegeta being able to
I really hope I've explained this well enough. Vegeta's statement has everything to do with him learning the ability to manipulate his power to the point where he can fool the scouters. That's it. There's no hidden message here.
I don't, is it ridiculous? Vegeta's line implies it, as well as implies he couldn't control his battle power during the battle on Earth.
Please read above. I cannot make it anymore clearer if I wanted at this point.
I'm just saying those "being able or not to control his battle power" is something inconsistent and badly explained throughout the manga.
Of course it's badly explained. That's why I'm curious as to what answer you're expecting from me.
I never did this. When did I ever do this?
Instead of going with the majority (1st form Freeza can raise his power), you're deciding that he's doing something totally different based on some out of place statement by Vegeta.
Except that's no random at all.
It's about as random as Vegeta being able to sense 3rd form Freeza's latent power.
The Earthlings were also astounding by the chi Nappa was generating and Goku also said "What chi" when Vegeta was doing his pseudo power up.
Yamcha: “Wh…what ki…and he’s not even fighting…”
Tenshinhan: “Wh-what a ki! Amazing…! S-so this is Goku as a Super Saiyan…?!”
So what? The same wording doesn't mean it's the same process. The above shows that.
I'm expecting to prove my point to you.
You're not being very clear with your point. In fact, you're all over the place right now.
It's not that I can't answer that, but what a statement form Vegeta regarding 3rd form Freeza has to do with what he stated about 2nd form Freeza?
You can't answer it because you have no answer for it. The point of mentioning the statement is to show you that bringing Vegeta's shitty, unexplained answers as a rebuttal is not a very effective way in proving your point. Since you can disregard something, I can disregard the fact that Vegeta's statement on Freeza's earlier forms differ and just go with the majority (Freeza's power went up. Nothing more) opinion and leave it at that.
Talk about random statements.
Aren't you the one bringing in random fights and situations to sustain your point? That's not random?
Goku said he'd also show his true power, so we know he increased it as well.
Tien never said anything about raising it in the way Daimao did, though. He realizes this by watching him gain the upperhand on Daimao. This is exactly why he thought Goku was no match for Drum and quickly changed that thought right after.
Freeza was relatively close to Goku in their warm up as well.
Goku's kick didn't even faze Freeza. Something he was even surprised about. Freeza had Goku on the ropes in just about every instance and Goku had him on none until he stopped using hands.
It's well-matched at the level Cell was using, as said by this latter.
Too bad the battle says otherwise. Too bad the statements say otherwise. Too bad that Cell only believes Goku has a slight chance at defeating him if he eats a senzu. Goku 's not even good enough to make Cell use his real speed. Cell is the clear superior without a shred of doubt. That's the point. Until you prove that Cell raised his power with his speed, there's not much else to say.
And I explained why I think they increased their power as well.
With even more assumptions. I can post statements where an increase in speed was mentioned and power wasn't stated to rise with it. Why can't you?
So what? It shows he's clearly tired, beat up and even struggling to get on his feet. Whether there is a statement or not, he was weakened.
When does #16 ever say someone's power is diminishing? He didn't say it when Vegeta got knocked to the ground by Cell, so this example is random and not very relevant. Sorry.
And got up fast, as I said.
He didn't get up fast. He's wincing in pain after getting elbowed and still holding on his stomach while trying to kick Freeza. He's straight-up shown to be winded, so he's already weakening. This is a non-point, anyway.
Yeah, and it means moving faster also requires more chi. They have to be less suppressed to move fast.
Ginyu Goku says hello. Gurd says hello. Reacoom says hello. Gohan flying at nearly the same speed as Krillin says hello. I'm sure you'll overlook that as well!
Kuririn said "Wh-what speed!", implying Vegeta was really fast, without even making mention of the flight. It shows you can analyze how fast someone is just by seeing they flight.
I already said that was because Vegeta was able to catch up to them really fast. Krillin wasn't expecting him to get there as quickly as he did. Vegeta being faster isn't an issue, anyway.
I admit your Gurd example is a good one, but I see it as just as him being a weakling had to be revealed yet, so AT just didn't put much thought on this scene.
See what I mean? How am I supposed to even reply to something like that?
When Trunks was following Vegeta to Gero's lab, he had to exert himself to get out of Trunks' sight and yet he couldn't and even called his son annoying. And they are in the same general level of power. I doubt a non-SSJ would be able to follow Vegeta on that instance.
No way to prove this.
Kuririn's "Wh-what speed!" to Vegeta's flight also implies he couldn't do the same as Vegeta, implying Vegeta was faster in general.
Which isn't an issue in itself. This becomes an issue because you assume speed can't be its own thing that doesn't always have a direct correlation. Hence the long-winded post where I constantly try to show that speed is regarded as its own thing throughout the story
:
Butta's response to Jheese taunt about Goku's speed is just his 5,000 power level, implying being that fast with that kind of power level isn't something expected. So I'd say it's not that wrong.
I see the "better chi control" as being able to increase it quickly.
And this doesn't need to be strictly related to power. That's like the entire point of my long-winded posts if you hadn't noticed.
Gohan probably thought he was faster because he thought Boo was too fat to move.
So why did Piccolo think he was faster than 3rd form Freeza?
I'd say Piccolo's speed test for Gotenks (which he passed, anyway) was nothing but an excuse to waste nearly all of his fusion time; otherwise he could've have gone to kill Boo like Goku believed, and that would've been the end of Boo arc right there.
Nothing to say here.
Videl also implied she couldn't follow them even at that speed, I see that due to her lack of chi.
Videl's also doesn't have anywhere the amount of power or understanding to comprehend it.
). Cell still wanted Goku to take a Senzu and keep fighting, that is, a fight with a far weaker Goku wouldn't be entertaining for him.
