Cell's speed increase

[ahill1]

What was the extent of the speed increase vs Gohan in your opinion? Did Gohan, maybe, held the same speed advantage vs Cell as Cell vs did Goku? Maybe a little more as Goku could still hit Cell sometimes?

And was there a power up to complement the speed increase post it? I think there may very well have been one, as he saw he did no damage to Gohan when he thought he had killed Gohan... If he wished to make Gohan enraged by attacking him and hurting him, it'd be sensible to bring his power up to a level that he could do it, complementing his speed increase, although not directly, explicitly stated by the characters.

Goku : 100
Cell (vs Goku) : 100
Gohan : 125
Cell (real speed) : 133
--- power making Gohan enraged : 133

It's weird to compared the powered up Cell vs Gohan in terms of power? Are them equals? Is Cell stronger? I wouldn't mind putting them as equals or even a slight advantage to Gohan weren't Cell easily kicking Gohan to the rocks when this latter tried to stop him before he'd create the Cell Juniors.

 

[SSJ2]

Goku: 100
Cell (vs Goku): 110
Cell (true speed): 125
Gohan: 140
Cell (post true speed): 145

Is how I view it. Initially, Cell wasn't even close to Gohan. Gohan was effortlessly dodging Cell's attacks and blocking them with ease. Then Cell ups his speed and appears to get the better of Gohan, yet doesn't do any damage to him. Right after that engagement it seemed like Cell starting being able to damage Gohan, yet Gohan was still around on par with Cell.

 

[ahill1]

I'd say Cell's speed post increase ought to be on par with Gohan's though. Cell assessed Gohan's speed and increased it enough to catch him. Cell thought "what a quick brat" so he seemed to think Gohan had a disproportionately speed, probably... And upon seeing he was tough by taking no damage, saw it was power too and did an implied but not stated power up imo. But I wouldn't say the speed level upon revealing real speed was lower than Gohan's speed...

 

[SSJ2]

My numbers reflect the power used only. You could argue that Cell's speed level was 145 but his power was only 125 on my scale.

 

[ahill1]

My numbers reflect the power used only. You could argue that Cell's speed level was 145 but his power was only 125 on my scale.

True. It could be. But wouldn't it be strange for Cell to think he'd kill Gohan instantly if he, even tho he obviously underestimated Gohan as when they aren't fighting, many times their powers sensing seem off, that he'd think he'd kill Gohan instantly. Even underestimating from sensing a power that's not active in battle, that still seems like a big difference imo. But it's a subjective feeling ofc.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I don’t get Cell’s attitude when he starts fighting Gohan. He reckons Gohan is stronger than Goku, so why doesn’t he level up right away? And when he does, it’s only his speed and Gohan is unharmed.

I suspect Cell doesn’t power up here, and only alters his effort. It was still a mystery whether Cell was going all out or not (Gohan asks Goku and he says he doesn’t know), so I don’t think the story would treat a power up so casually.

 

[Power Level Guy]

I think Cell's power and speed scale together. Every time someone says their power goes up, there speed follows suit. It's so odd for people to think that people saying their speed has increased would not mean the same.

Power and Speed increase together. Cell wouldn't expect a punch that couldn't kill Goku to kill a much stronger Gohan, unless his power increased along with his speed. Remember, the topic is him being slow, the topic is speed, which is why he reacts in kind. It's the same scenario with Freeza vs Vegeta, his speed increases, but of course his power does too.

Cell's respect for Goku is some bushido type of stuff. He respects Goku as a martial artist. On a whole different level then the others. The idea he's being subjugated into fighting a child of all things is jarring and disrespectful. As much as he respects Goku's power, Cell's true power is way beyond everyone, he's just enjoying the chess match with Goku. One in which Gohan cannot provide.

 

[ahill1]

Yes, but speed was the highlighted attribute. On the same token, if he noticed Gohan as a speedy guy, mentioning it, it'd make sense that in spite of him thinking his power was enough to damage Gohan, Gohan's speed scaled higher than his sensible power... And saw that power went along with it when Gohan showed 0 damage to his attack and then increased his power to hurt him accordingly, complementing the speed he used before. I Herms translation, Cell says "what if I go all out, in speed at least?"... It wouldn't make sense to single out speed with the ""at least", treating it differently, if power also went up with it. So the way it was worded gives it that impression too.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Yes, but speed was the highlighted attribute.

But @ahill1 I just explained why. It's the same reason Gohan talks speed against Fat Buu, or Piccolo does against 3rd Form Freeza, or Freeza does against Vegeta. It's because that's the topic at hand. Not some special speed boost only scenario people seem to think.

 

[ahill1]

Don't those examples specially show speed can be its own thing regardless of the power?

 

[SSJ2]

True. It could be. But wouldn't it be strange for Cell to think he'd kill Gohan instantly if he, even tho he obviously underestimated Gohan as when they aren't fighting, many times their powers sensing seem off, that he'd think he'd kill Gohan instantly. Even underestimating from sensing a power that's not active in battle, that still seems like a big difference imo. But it's a subjective feeling ofc.

It looked like Cell was continually underestimating Gohan, almost to the point of delusion. It was the same as when SSJ2 Gohan was beating him up. It took several exchanges for Cell to admit that Gohan had surpassed him when it should have been clear as soon as Gohan transformed. Like at the start of the fight with Gohan, he kept fighting at the level that he used against Goku despite Gohan clearly being much stronger. Then when Gohan was dodging/blocking his attacks, Cell wasn't willing to admit that Gohan's power also matched his speed. Hence he upped his speed/power but it still wasn't enough.

 

[ahill1]

True enough. But at least when Gohan went SSJ2, Cell was seen sweating, in awe and nervous. There could be more room for a fake confidence there.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

P’s point makes sense. Speed is the bigger deal. But on the other hand, why does he call it his “true” speed?

Cell is probably the dumbest villain out in DBZ. Being confident means jack shit with him.

 

[Power Level Guy]

It's like what 2nd Form Freeza did. He revealed a smaller portion of his available reserves then he actually had.

 

[Kyo]

The Viz line leaves more room for interpretation, but the Strength Checker's wording of "how about I go all-out, in speed at least?" clearly indicates that he's singling out his speed from his power. If he's going all out "in speed, at least" then there's some aspect(s) in which he's not going all out, and with most characters in Dragon Ball that can only mean one other thing. With Freeza you can read it another way, but here it's obvious. At best, moving faster gives his blows more momentum because of basic physics, but he's not going all-out in strength.

 

[Power Level Guy]

The Viz line leaves more room for interpretation, but the Strength Checker's wording of "how about I go all-out, in speed at least?" clearly indicates that he's singling out his speed from his power. If he's going all out "in speed, at least" then there's some aspect(s) in which he's not going all out, and with most characters in Dragon Ball that can only mean one other thing. With Freeza you can read it another way, but here it's obvious. At best, moving faster gives his blows more momentum because of basic physics, but he's not going all-out in strength.

Is the Viz line accurate?

 

[ahill1]

Is the Viz line accurate?

Nah, JP manga has it like Herms', I checked.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Goku: 100
Cell (vs Goku): 110
Gohan: 166
Cell (true speed): 166

 

[Kyo]

I’ll take a spin on Q’s take and say that the bear hug is a different level of power, and that’s probably when he goes “all-out” in strength.

Goku - 80
Gohan - 110
Cell - 115
~ vs Goku - 90

Cell is initially 90/90 (strength/speed) against Gohan, then 90/115, then 115/115.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Most logical answer to me is that Cell's power and he just wasn't doing full effort.

Goku: 100
Cell: 125 but effort-wise is 110
Gohan: 125

Cell does his full speed of 125, but his strength doesn't increase. It's like being hit really fast with a pillow. I think he only went full strength the next chapter, probably when Gohan knocked his ass on the floor.