Cell's speed increase

[Kyo]

Yes, that’s what I said.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yes, that’s what I said.

It’s not. Stop lying.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Surely someone would notice that large of a discrepancy in power between Cell and Goku if it were that large don't you think?

Oh it can't be sensed is what you are saying?

 

[SSJ2]

Yeah if Cell was that far ahead of Goku it should have been expected that Goku would have been one shot, regardless of the effort level Cell was using. Yet the entire Z Senshi was clearly expecting a close match, and Cell even said that the powers should closely match in order to have a good fight.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Yeah if Cell was that far ahead of Goku it should have been expected that Goku would have been one shot, regardless of the effort level Cell was using. Yet the entire Z Senshi was clearly expecting a close match, and Cell even said that the powers should closely match in order to have a good fight.

I think they are implying it's a 2nd form Freeza scenaio, but then even he was noted to have gone full power.

Cell saying "Speed, at least" is rough.

 

[SSJ2]

I mean when 4th form Freeza says he increases his speed against Vegeta, it is assumed he also increased his power.

 

[Power Level Guy]

I mean when 4th form Freeza says he increases his speed against Vegeta, it is assumed he also increased his power.

Yeah, that's what I was arguing initially. But if Cell says, "How about I go all out, in speed at least" it's awkward.

 

[SSJ2]

Yeah, that's what I was arguing initially. But if Cell says, "How about I go all out, in speed at least" it's awkward.

Freeza says the same thing though. Freeza said he only needed to increase his speed a little, but why would he not increase his power as well? They should go hand in hand.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Surely someone would notice that large of a discrepancy in power between Cell and Goku if it were that large don't you think?

Oh it can't be sensed is what you are saying?

Why?

I mean, I think this should imply Gohan isn’t >>>>> Goku, but I don’t think anyone should be “I sense a 1.25x gap but the fights looks like a 1.1x!”. Nobody talks like that, ever.

Alternatively, nobody is surprised Cell powers up against Gohan.

Freeza says the same thing though. Freeza said he only needed to increase his speed a little, but why would he not increase his power as well? They should go hand in hand.

I think the question should go the other way around. Shy would he increase his power? He’s just dodging.

 

[SSJ2]

Because we are told that speed and power correlate.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Not always.

 

[ahill1]

I think saying "in speed, AT LEAST" shows he's clearly separating speed from power. It isn't the same as Freeza.... Ok he only mentioned speed but someone can argue because it was the focus of the statement since he dodged. But here, Cell singled out speed with the at least. That means speed is the only attribute he's going to go all out, otherwise saying "at least in speed" makes no sense.

I think he saw Gohan as a quick brat with speed above his power... Once he saw Gohan wasn't just speedy as Gohan took no damage from an attack he thought had killed him, then he brought his power to the speed up level so he could damage more effectively and make Gohan go mad, even if the up in power wasn't flat out stated, though it's sensible enough.

 

[Kyo]

The Freeza situation is different. Freeza says he increased his speed but nothing in the line suggests that he doesn't increase anything else -- "I get just a little serious and raise my speed, and it seems that you can’t keep up with me." He also singles out his speed because all he did in his short exchange with Vegeta was dodge his blows. Cell says he'll go all-out "in speed, at least" and then he grabs Gohan and attacks him, the latter of which involves his power. Cell singles out his speed because he wasn't able to catch Gohan without going all-out, but he also makes it explicit that it's the only adjustment he's making.

Surely someone would notice that large of a discrepancy in power between Cell and Goku if it were that large don't you think?

Right after Freeza says he'll power up to 50%, Piccolo says that he can't tell who'll win because their powers are beyond his comprehension. Unless Freeza stood there without powering up and then instantly powered up to 50% after Piccolo made his comment, that's insane. Piccolo only knew that Goku was out of his league after Freeza attacked.

A couple of less extreme examples are Krillin not grasping the difference between Vegeta/Semi Cell and Vegeta/Zarbon.

I think they are implying it's a 2nd form Freeza scenaio, but then even he was noted to have gone full power.

Neither translation really suggests a power-up. Viz says he was faking it, Herms says he wasn't fighting seriously. He could've powered up, but he may not have. So yeah, it could be like that situation.

Because we are told that speed and power correlate.

Speed and power do correlate, at least on an individual level. Meaning that an individual's increase in ki (power) should always be accompanied by an increase in speed. That's why I think it has to be assumed that Cell didn't power up. The only way he could go all-out in just speed is if he's already powered up to the level that he could fight Gohan at, and he's just continuing to pull his punches.

This also explains why he says "all-out." All-out in what respect? It's obviously not his FULL speed. It must mean all-out at his current level.

and Cell even said that the powers should closely match in order to have a good fight.

This is also after he gave Goku a free opening. Even if he's not at Gohan's level against Goku, we still find out later that he's 2 steps ahead. In terms of just power discrepancy you couldn't call them "closely matched," but it's close enough that Cell can sandbag to an acceptable degree (in his mind) and have fun.

 

[SSJ2]

Speed and power do correlate, at least on an individual level. Meaning that an individual's increase in ki (power) should always be accompanied by an increase in speed. That's why I think it has to be assumed that Cell didn't power up. The only way he could go all-out in just speed is if he's already powered up to the level that he could fight Gohan at, and he's just continuing to pull his punches.

This also explains why he says "all-out." All-out in what respect? It's obviously not his FULL speed. It must mean all-out at his current level.

Seems like a strange way to go about things. Cell knew what level he needed to be at to have fun against Goku. Why not power up to that level instead of a level above that only to pull his punches? That seems like unnecessary work.

This is also after he gave Goku a free opening. Even if he's not at Gohan's level against Goku, we still find out later that he's 2 steps ahead. In terms of just power discrepancy you couldn't call them "closely matched," but it's close enough that Cell can sandbag to an acceptable degree (in his mind) and have fun.

Then you're basically forced to accept that Cell powered up again after using his "real" speed.

Goku: “The Cell Games will probably end with this next match. Since if he loses, there won’t be anyone else who could win against you…[ ] But from fighting you just now, I think this guy really can beat you after all."

Goku already had confidence in Gohan being able to beat Cell. Cell then increased his level by upping his speed and was still far inferior to Gohan. There's no way to explain the later events unless Cell powered up again.

 

[Kyo]

Seems like a strange way to go about things. Cell knew what level he needed to be at to have fun against Goku. Why not power up to that level instead of a level above that only to pull his punches? That seems like unnecessary work.

I don't know. Maybe he didn't know exactly until Goku hit him. Maybe it was just for a bit of insurance.
My hands are tied because he says he'll go all-out, which usually means full power. But if it doesn't mean that, then it must mean all-out "at my current level," which is what I'm going with. If it doesn't mean that, then I don't know what he means.
Viz gives us more leeway since he just says something like "check out my real speed." Much less specific.

There's no way to explain the later events unless Cell powered up again.

I don't know what you mean exactly (as in, why is there no way to explain them except that he powered up, when it could just be that he stopped pulling his punches). I'd tacitly agree that it's possible he powered up later, but I don't think he did when he makes the statement about his speed specifically.

 

[SSJ2]

I don't know what you mean exactly (as in, why is there no way to explain them except that he powered up, when it could just be that he stopped pulling his punches). I'd tacitly agree that it's possible he powered up later, but I don't think he did when he makes the statement about his speed specifically.

I'm referring to the bear hug and after that. Cell's true speed level was already shown to be completely ineffective against Gohan, and this is the level we are saying Cell stopped pulling his punches at. Goku had already stated that he figured Gohan should be able to beat Cell, and quite confidently at that. Yet Goku was forced to realize that Gohan needed help against Cell and was going to take a senzu to get back in the fight. That confidence was completely shattered from the point of the bear hug. It became clear that Gohan could not beat Cell.

 

[Kyo]

No no, I meant that at "true speed level" he uses his full speed (at his current level of suppression) to catch Gohan, but still pulls his punches.

 

[SSJ2]

I know what you meant. What I’m saying is that if Cell was all out at that level, in both speed and power, he has to have powered up again if Goku went from believing Gohan could win to knowing he would lose in a hurry.

 

[Kyo]

Ah alright. Well, Goku is counting on Gohan's rage to beat Cell; he changes his tune when Piccolo makes him realize that it probably won't work that way.



This purported "true power" is what's meant to beat Cell.




It's not like the fight state had changed before and after these statements that changed Goku's mind.

 

[ahill1]

Yeah I think the way Goku says makes it seem like he was counting with Gohan's enraged powers all along... Not something he suddenly believed, but something he knew from the start Gohan had to tap for Cell to be defeated. When Goku goes unharmed after Cell's full speed attack, he also states he knows what his father meant by him being able to beat Cell --- going on stories about how strong he becomes when he loses his mind. So the focus is all on Gohan's true power when enraged. That power Gohan has as SSJ is impressive in his own right, but most likely comparable to the level Cell used when battling Goku, I'd say. It's above Goku, but in that "1 or 2 steps" realm. I guess.

Honestly, I think Gohan is a quick character... So maybe he has speed am little above what his power suggests, much like Goku had a bigger flight speed than Ginyu even while suppressed, plus Gohan being confident in his speed despite his power being way below fat Boo. Maybe his speed checks up a little above his power --- and Cell also increased this attribute a little above his own power... With the all out possibly meaning the full Cell can achieve before needing to do a big power up and go FP --- which I assume as more or less a grade 2 type power up. In numbers

Goku -- 88
Cell 100

Gohan 100
-- speed 115

Cell - 100
-- all out speed -- 115

Then it's possible Cell brought his BP up to this all out speed level once seeing he did no damage to Gohan... Bringing it to a level he'd hurt Gohan and bring his rage out of him.

Cell - 115 (both power and speed now)

So Cell and Gohan can be matched in speed, but Cell's power is noticeably above Gohan's now like the advantage he had vs Goku, hence why he can do that dismissive kick when Gohan tried to stop him from hurting the others.

Or maybe Cell underestimated both Gohan's speed and power... And Gohan hadn't one attribute beyond the other, necessarily... Like

Goku - 90
Cell -100
Gohan - 110

Cell (1st increase) ---- assumes Gohan's is faster but not THAT strong
-- speed 125
-- power 100

Cell (now increasing power --- seeing Gohan is both fast and tough) -- 125 (both speed and power and bringing it to his all out level... That is, the highest he can be without needing to power up more in his true power... The highest his suppressed level allows him to be).

The 2nd one makes sense to me tbh. Cell increasing firstly to a speed level that could catch and surpass Gohan but still having his power below Gohan's... Maybe he assumes Gohan is slightly beyond Goku but slightly, like 93, and thought he had killed him... But then he sees he also underestimated Gohan's power and went all out in both.

MSSJ Goku - 100
Cell (vs Goku) - 110
MSSJ Gohan - 120
Cell (speed vs Gohan) - 132
Cell (power and speed vs Gohan) - 132

That's the best I can do honestly.