Dabura (FP)> Dabura (Suppressed vs Gohan) = SPC ~ Kid Gohan SSJ2> Teen Gohan SSJ2?

[SIAD]

So Dabura (Suppressed vs Gohan) vs Teen Gohan SSJ2 which seemed pretty even, really Dabura had a slight advantage, considering Gohan wasn't losing at all and had to take a Hermit Seed. Was it something similar to Freeza First Form vs Vegeta or Cell vs Goku?

What do you think?

 

[Animelover5487]

Dabura wasn't surpressed against Gohan, CG SS2 Gohan was stronger than SPC.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Dabura wasn't surpressed against Gohan,

His reactions in comparison to Gohan say differently. Dabura was calm and confident throughout the entire fight, not even breaking a sweat, and didn't even seem surprised when his sword got broken, whereas Gohan was taking things entirely seriously and clearly being worn down. Dabura was also confident in facing Gohan again despite the latter having healed up to at least the level when they fought and even referred to him as trash and Gohan even meditating on Goku's words to get angry as though it's a necessity to win, something very difficult to swallow when just accounting for his rusty skills and stamina.
Moreover, their reactions to Boo are quite telling.
There's also a comparison between their reactions to Boo. Gohan refers to initial Boo's Ki as monstrous and clearly notes how bad the situation is, even noting it's not hopeless if he can use all his strength. Meanwhile, whereas Dabura finds Boo nothing noteworthy until he powers up despite Dabura still having some form of Ki sensing when he could sense the Dragon Team hiding and distinguish the three highest Kis, and even mocked their attempts to suppress their presence.
For what supplementary material is worth, you also have both the Super manga and Z anime validating this. The former shows Dabura taking a kick from SS2 Trunks fairly well despite Base Trunks swinging the Z-Sword far easier than Boo Arc Gohan or Goku could initially do in base as well as his blade clashing evenly with it, with the Z anime having Trunks noted Dabura's Ki increased when he fought Boo. Overall, there seems to be a lot more supporting Dabura holding back against Gohan than the contrary, of which I'll go into:

Q: "Why didn't Dabura damage Gohan enough?"
A: Dabura was already characterised as finding enjoyment in toying with weaker fighters and not completely following Babidi's orders, both evidenced by him disappointed Pui Pui may leave nothing for him. His reactions during the fight suggest this was such a case, Dabura having his fun before getting a chance to seriously damage him, and it's not as though that was difficult with how much Gohan's stamina was dropping.

Q: "Why did Dabura resort to the sword and spit?"
A: Gohan was expendable as an energy resource. Considering Babidi initially estimated three guys weaker than Pui Pui can fill up the meter, one such as Gohan was expendable when he still had two more to draw from and knew at least one had over 3,000 Kiri. Dabura was clearly annoyed at Gohan's arrogance too, so he may have wanted to use either method to show how green he was.

Q: "What about the Daizenshuu saying their battle was even, or the Dragon Books saying Dabura had inferior power?"
A: Their battle wasn't an even one when Gohan was constantly losing ground and never gained a solid advantage on Dabura. The anime version of the fight added a lot of filler to make Gohan have a better performance and, even then, it was later revealed Dabura was still hiding some power.

CG SS2 Gohan was stronger than SPC.

Dragon Books disagrees.

Gohan was stronger at the end of the Kamehameha struggle, but that was after bringing his power to new heights.

The latter is further supported by Boo Arc statements such as Goku and Vegeta's comments on a hypothetical enraged Gohan, as well as CG Gohan being implied to be simultaneously not much weaker than Goku/Majin Vegeta yet still someone Pre-Majin Vegeta could potentially beat.

 

[SSJ2]

Dabra's ki sensing being accurate isn't a guarantee. He can definitely sense ki in some form, but his ability to understand the latent power of the Z Senshi despite being suppressed to 0 tells me that it doesn't work the same way as normal ki sensing. He was also dead wrong in all of his prior estimations despite knowing that the 3 Saiyans were the strongest there. First he thought that Pocus would be enough to fill up Boo's meter with their energy:

He then was shocked by Pocus losing to Vegeta. Not only that, but he thought that Yakon was complete overkill against the group.

Furthermore, when Boo was forming, Gohan was seemingly the only one that was able to sense his ki. Dabra only took note of the cloud after Gohan pointed it out, and even still, he had no idea that it was producing ki.

All of this makes me seriously question the accuracy of Dabra's sensing abilities.

But even if Dabra was able to sense his ki, even Gohan became quite optimistic about the situation. It seems to me that it was more of a case of judging a book by its cover if anything.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

He can definitely sense ki in some form, but his ability to understand the latent power of the Z Senshi despite being suppressed to 0 tells me that it doesn't work the same way as normal ki sensing.

That's assuming it was indeed suppressed right down to 0. We saw on Namek Kuririn and Gohan couldn't fully hide their Ki when hiding from Vegeta and still leaked out enough that they were confused for a giant fish, and the lowest we've seen someone suppress their Ki to is Base Trunks' level of 5.

He was also dead wrong in all of his prior estimations despite knowing that the 3 Saiyans were the strongest there. First he thought that Pocus would be enough to fill up Boo's meter with their energy:
He then was shocked by Pocus losing to Vegeta. Not only that, but he thought that Yakon was complete overkill against the group.

It's very questionable if he can even sense people from another level of the ship when Babidi can freely transport them to another part of space and the like, not to mention this was before Vegeta had started fighting and, when he did fight, he released the Ki to kill Pui Pui when teleported to Zoon.

 

[SSJ2]

Krillin also stated that it was Dende's tiny amount of energy that Vegeta would sense, not their own. Even if they weren't able to suppress all the way to 0, it would be ridiculous for Dabra to consider the Saiyans to have significant energy at 0.5 when Piccolo and Krillin might've been at 0.3. It's pretty clear that Dabra isn't making this estimation from the ki they were displaying.

It's very questionable if he can even sense people from another level of the ship when Babidi can freely transport them to another part of space and the like, not to mention this was before Vegeta had started fighting and, when he did fight, he released the Ki to kill Pui Pui when teleported to Zoon.

I agree that it's questionable, though the fact that the energy meter was able to sense ki through Babidi's crystal ball leaves it as a possibility. Even still, that isn't what I'm referring to in general. Dabra's concept on energy is completely warped. First of all, SSJ2 Gohan's full ki wasn't able to fill Boo's meter halfway, yet Dabra was still confident that the energy he sensed from the Base Saiyans would be enough to fill the last 60% of the meter. That alone shows how inaccurate his estimations/abilities were.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

First of all, SSJ2 Gohan's full ki wasn't able to fill Boo's meter halfway, yet Dabra was still confident that the energy he sensed from the Base Saiyans would be enough to fill the last 60% of the meter. That alone shows how inaccurate his estimations/abilities were.

To be fair, it's suggested Babidi didn't get much, if any, noticeable energy prior to Gohan (especially in the anime where it's shown as basically empty prior) and Babidi knows these are three people Shin saw significant enough as backup when under the impression Lord :bitch and Bottom Bitch Yamu drained countless humans. When founded on Babidi's lack of a good benchmark for what was necessary to fill the meter, I can see Dabura making such a stretch regardless of his general accuracy in sensing.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Man, CC even showed up a FAQ on his post. Guy got more backup than Batman.

 

[Animelover5487]

Dragon Books disagrees.

Gohan was stronger at the end of the Kamehameha struggle, but that was after bringing his power to new heights.

The latter is further supported by Boo Arc statements such as Goku and Vegeta's comments on a hypothetical enraged Gohan, as well as CG Gohan being implied to be simultaneously not much weaker than Goku/Majin Vegeta yet still someone Pre-Majin Vegeta could potentially beat.

SPC being stronger than FP SSJ2 Gohan seems like a stretch considering Cell's KHH took a while to completely overpower a one-armed Gohan who was at less than half power.

Gohan first became enraged when the Cell Junior's were stomping the others where Cell noted that his power rose which was prior to him turning SS2 so Gohan would already have a rage buff before the transformation. Pre-Majin Vegeta doesn't need to be above CG Gohan, Vegeta knew Gohan had slacked off even prior to the tournament and he even noted that Gohan could potentially defeat him if he lost his temper.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

SPC being stronger than FP SSJ2 Gohan seems like a stretch considering Cell's KHH took a while to completely overpower a one-armed Gohan who was at less than half power.

It was pretty clear from his expression Cell wasn't taking things seriously, which is in character with him enjoying slowly presenting the inevitable to his opponent rather than quickly finishing things.

Gohan first became enraged when the Cell Junior's were stomping the others where Cell noted that his power rose which was prior to him turning SS2 so Gohan would already have a rage buff before the transformation.

Which only means his rage at the end of the Kamehameha struggle was even greater than that, which makes sense with Goku's comments about letting all his power explode.

Pre-Majin Vegeta doesn't need to be above CG Gohan, Vegeta knew Gohan had slacked off even prior to the tournament

He didn't expect Gohan to have weakened to the extent he had though as evident by his comment when Gohan faced Kibito. It's even debatable if he even believed his Ki to have decreased at all when looking a little out of shape isn't enough to necessitate a significant drop in power.

and he even noted that Gohan could potentially defeat him if he lost his temper.

If. Combined with Goku's statement and the Daizenshuu entry, it's pretty apparent this has more to do with his power at the moment he killed Cell than the majority of the Cell Game.

 

[Goku9001]

Which only means his rage at the end of the Kamehameha struggle was even greater than that, which makes sense with Goku's comments about letting all his power explode.

I disagree here. Goku told Gohan to tap into his dormant power through rage before entering SSJ2 whereas against SPC, he tells him to let go of his self-doubt and let his power explode. The former implies that Gohan was not able to release his full power whereas the latter implies he was doing so intentionally which implies that Gohan was already using his full power before-hand.

 

[Papasmurf]

[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention] I'm not sure the Dragon Book would hold any authority over anything but the anime continuity when Toriyama didn't write it, nor does it even pertain to the manga version. The Dragon Book says base Vegetto > Gohan-Boo, and that was never stated in the manga or the Daizenshuu, only that Vegetto >> SSJ3.

Plus, Piccolo says Vegeta only "seems" to be stronger than SSJ2 CG Gohan and the wording doesn't really seem to refer to the enraged power he displayed only for a split second when winning the Kamehameha duel, just Gohan from 7 years ago in general. Piccolo doesn't say "Gohan's peak," or "stronger than Gohan ever was," he just says "Gohan when he fought Cell."

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I'm not sure the Dragon Book would hold any authority over anything but the anime continuity when Toriyama didn't write it, nor does it even pertain to the manga version. The Dragon Book says base Vegetto > Gohan-Boo, and that was never stated in the manga or the Daizenshuu, only that Vegetto >> SSJ3.

Fair point, though it's not as though the original manga doesn't provide any logic for SPC > SS2 Gohan. After all, Cell was able to severely damage Gohan with just one Ki blast and it's not as though Gohan couldn't have mounted a defence or endured the blast regardless of his lack of defence when we've seen characters that were near even in power avoid being severely injured by casual blasts such as Goku not getting fatally injured when flying into Piccolo's Ki blast at the start of their Budokai match. The closest thing to arguing against it being a testament to Cell's feat is Cui believing his off-guard attack could kill Vegeta, and leaving aside that Gohan wasn't "off-guard" per se, that's trusting Cui is an accurate judge on that.

Plus, Piccolo says Vegeta only "seems" to be stronger than SSJ2 CG Gohan and the wording doesn't really seem to refer to the enraged power he displayed only for a split second when winning the Kamehameha duel, just Gohan from 7 years ago in general. Piccolo doesn't say "Gohan's peak," or "stronger than Gohan ever was," he just says "Gohan when he fought Cell."

That's true, though Vegeta's wording paints a different picture. Vegeta clearly didn't expect Gohan's slacking off to have made him vastly weaker than when he killed Cell given he found it worth pointing out despite noting Gohan looking out of shape at the start of the arc and was also confident in being the top dog at the Budokai, yet still saw Goku's SS2 burst as necessitating Babidi's possession and making it apparent he only thought Goku may be stronger than the Gohan that killed Cell prior to the proper transformation confirming it for him.

The only thing fully implying Gohan was superior without any additional rage towards the end would be Goku's confidence Gohan could beat Cell if he really felt like it, but whether he was basing it on Gohan's prior power or more he could access through rage is debatable when considering his statement in the Boo Arc.

"Get angry, Gohan…Remember how you got angry and fought Cell, and draw out all of the power you have. If you do that, you won’t lose to anyone in the entire world! Not to anyone…"

It's not as though he were saying SS2 Gohan in general was the peak of power at that power either when he was fully intent on displaying a power greater than it as soon as Gohan left. Seems Goku in general had full confidence in Gohan being able to boost his power to even greater heights through rage, something Vegeta also believes with his statement inside the spaceship.

 

[Papasmurf]

I'm not sure the Dragon Book would hold any authority over anything but the anime continuity when Toriyama didn't write it, nor does it even pertain to the manga version. The Dragon Book says base Vegetto > Gohan-Boo, and that was never stated in the manga or the Daizenshuu, only that Vegetto >> SSJ3.

Fair point, though it's not as though the original manga doesn't provide any logic for SPC > SS2 Gohan. After all, Cell was able to severely damage Gohan with just one Ki blast and it's not as though Gohan couldn't have mounted a defence or endured the blast regardless of his lack of defence when we've seen characters that were near even in power avoid being severely injured by casual blasts such as Goku not getting fatally injured when flying into Piccolo's Ki blast at the start of their Budokai match. The closest thing to arguing against it being a testament to Cell's feat is Cui believing his off-guard attack could kill Vegeta, and leaving aside that Gohan wasn't "off-guard" per se, that's trusting Cui is an accurate judge on that.

We had stuff like Piccolo (with the power of two battle worn-guys like Kuririn or Gohan) managing to knock 50% Freeza away hundreds of feet or Freeza being stunned momentarily from the same two fighters after they were utterly drained because he was off guard, though. I don't think off-guard logic is all that consistent, although certainly nowhere near as inconsistent as the ray-gun scene until FnF, and even Gohan's acknowledgement that Cell's power rose more than he thought didn't imply or state that he surpassed his uninjured SSJ2 power. Plus I doubt Toriyama would feel the need for Gohan's power to be halved by an off guard attack if Cell was capable of doing so on his own in a fair fight, outside of off guard attacks.

 

[Pyro]

Dabura being suppressed is lol.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

We had stuff like Piccolo (with the power of two battle worn-guys like Kuririn or Gohan) managing to knock 50% Freeza away hundreds of feet or Freeza being stunned momentarily from the same two fighters after they were utterly drained because he was off guard, though.

An off-guard kick to a totally unaware Freeza that caused zero damage isn't really that comparable to this though. Gohan wasn't "off-guard" to the same extent either, if at all. He'd still be outputting all of his Ki to fly to Vegeta ASAP and had plenty of time to counter at that, rather than being completely unaware the attack was coming. It's also worth pointing out that Gohan is highly durable more so than Ki alone would suggest as most Saiyans are, evidenced by Cell's surprise at his SSJ self's ability to take no damage from his attacks despite the fact Cell should've gotten a good idea of his power from Gohan releasing his full Ki prior to the fight.

Plus I doubt Toriyama would feel the need for Gohan's power to be halved by an off guard attack if Cell was capable of doing so on his own in a fair fight, outside of off guard attacks.

That'd be assuming that was his intent, which is very debatable when several other factors such as Toriyama wanting to get the fight over with quickly (something evidenced by him suggesting in interviews continuing after the Cell Arc is something he'd do only if he had full creative control over it) or certain character moments being far more difficult to work in if adding in a full fight such as Vegeta's apology to Gohan.

 

[Papasmurf]

We had stuff like Piccolo (with the power of two battle worn-guys like Kuririn or Gohan) managing to knock 50% Freeza away hundreds of feet or Freeza being stunned momentarily from the same two fighters after they were utterly drained because he was off guard, though.

An off-guard kick to a totally unaware Freeza that caused zero damage isn't really that comparable to this though. Gohan wasn't "off-guard" to the same extent either, if at all. He'd still be outputting all of his Ki to fly to Vegeta ASAP and had plenty of time to counter at that, rather than being completely unaware the attack was coming. It's also worth pointing out that Gohan is highly durable more so than Ki alone would suggest as most Saiyans are, evidenced by Cell's surprise at his SSJ self's ability to take no damage from his attacks despite the fact Cell should've gotten a good idea of his power from Gohan releasing his full Ki prior to the fight.

It still proves my point that an off guard attack tends to drastically raise its efficiency compared to an attack of equal or even somewhat greater caliber when it's seen in plain sight. One of the few examples of an attack that the recipient saw coming still doing damage (when the attacker is weaker) would be the Final Flash really, while off guard attacks definitely do more damage judging by the fact that Shen only being moderately damaged by Yamcha's Sokidan proved how superior he was. Wouldn't prove shit if off guard attacks didn't mean that much, and we know they mean quite a lot considering that Piccolo (while exhausted and beaten) blasted a hole clean through Goku's shoulder when he was previously much more exhausted.

Gohan still failing to acknowledge that Cell was the stronger fighter, even though he's not that arrogant of a character tells me Cell isn't really stronger. And the angling of the panel where Gohan tries to defend Vegeta hardly suggests he was prepared at all. I agree the gap between Gohan and Cell isn't large, because of Cell's statement that he powered up like Gohan, but I don't see Cell as the superior of the two. I think if that was the case it'd be stated.

Plus I doubt Toriyama would feel the need for Gohan's power to be halved by an off guard attack if Cell was capable of doing so on his own in a fair fight, outside of off guard attacks.

That'd be assuming that was his intent, which is very debatable when several other factors such as Toriyama wanting to get the fight over with quickly (something evidenced by him suggesting in interviews continuing after the Cell Arc is something he'd do only if he had full creative control over it) or certain character moments being far more difficult to work in if adding in a full fight such as Vegeta's apology to Gohan.

Toriyama still devoted 2 chapters to Trunks killing fodder like the future cyborgs or 1st form Cell, so I don't think the "Toriyama wanted to rush things" argument still has much room to stand. Not to mention that nobody in the Boo arc gives all that much respect to Cell outside of the statement about him being compared to Dabura, while Gohan was used as a benchmark for superior characters like SSJ2

 

[Papasmurf]

double post

 

[Pyro]

Also to the point of the Dragon Book's credibility when talking manga matters, DB7 stated Pure Boo was stronger than Gohan-Boo.

 

[SIAD]

I think because of everything they mention, I have Kid Gohan SSJ2 and SPC on the same level, just so Gohan could overcome SPC's advantage of having regeneration, if that rage boost of power was needed for Kid Gohan SSJ2.