Dabura (FP)> Dabura (Suppressed vs Gohan) = SPC ~ Kid Gohan SSJ2> Teen Gohan SSJ2?

[Future Warrior]

If Dabura is on par with Super Perfect Cell, then I’m starting to think SSJ2 Adult Gohan might be even stronger than that.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

It still proves my point that an off guard attack tends to drastically raise its efficiency compared to an attack of equal or even somewhat greater caliber when it's seen in plain sight. One of the few examples of an attack that the recipient saw coming still doing damage (when the attacker is weaker) would be the Final Flash really, while off guard attacks definitely do more damage judging by the fact that Shen only being moderately damaged by Yamcha's Sokidan proved how superior he was.

Cell's feat is still one not replicated to the same extent of damage in the franchise from weaker fighters outside of pretty clear outliers in modern material like Sorbet's ring. The Final Flash example isn't quite as comparable either when Cell was clearly holding back, compared to Gohan having no reason to hold back the level of Ki he had when his goal was to get to Vegeta ASAP and, even with us agreeing the gap between them isn't that great, we've never seen another case where a stronger character was so severely weakened by an attack from an inferior one despite those instances being far more off-guard when characters weren't even aware of the attack before it hit.

Wouldn't prove shit if off guard attacks didn't mean that much, and we know they mean quite a lot considering that Piccolo (while exhausted and beaten) blasted a hole clean through Goku's shoulder when he was previously much more exhausted.

Not only were both fighters basically equal at that point, but it's not as though Goku's durability was at its peak either when he'd just endured Piccolo's strongest attack and the Meteor Combination he used following it probably drained a hefty portion of his Ki. Not really the same as two fresh fighters.

Gohan still failing to acknowledge that Cell was the stronger fighter, even though he's not that arrogant of a character tells me Cell isn't really stronger.

SS2 Gohan is, without exaggeration, the most arrogant version of Gohan though, something illustrated very well in the very chapter he receives the injury with how much he underestimated Cell.

And the angling of the panel where Gohan tries to defend Vegeta hardly suggests he was prepared at all.

It can even be debated if Gohan's position even counts as being off guard when he had full knowledge the attack was coming and the defensive property of Ki can cover the whole body if necessary or be brought to the parts necessary to defend (eg. SSJ Galu focusing his Ki into his finger against Trunks). Again, we've never seen a case of a character using their body as a human shield in such a way and taking such damage from a weaker fighter.

I agree the gap between Gohan and Cell isn't large, because of Cell's statement that he powered up like Gohan, but I don't see Cell as the superior of the two. I think if that was the case it'd be stated.

I can concede that Gohan's damage may be due to how severely he underestimated his power up as he said immediately after. However, Cell also implies around the same time that this wasn't his full power with how he said he was done playing around.

Toriyama still devoted 2 chapters to Trunks killing fodder like the future cyborgs or 1st form Cell, so I don't think the "Toriyama wanted to rush things" argument still has much room to stand.

The chapters with Trunks were a necessary sendoff to his character when considering him just returning to his future lacked much catharsis for his character with how little he got to do in the arc as a whole though.

Not to mention that nobody in the Boo arc gives all that much respect to Cell outside of the statement about him being compared to Dabura,

Which just goes to show how powerful Galu and Vegeta had become, with Goku talking about how Dabura would've been a terrifying opponent not too long ago.

while Gohan was used as a benchmark for superior characters like SSJ2

Gohan did overpower Cell by the end, so he'd still be the biggest benchmark when it came to new peaks in power. Prior to the beam struggle though, it's fairly debatable.

Regardless of the validity of the Dragon Books or the anime scaling to the fight, you also have Daizenshuu 2's statement on SPC and various recent translations of it suggesting the most accurate translation of it being that he became the strongest being at the time.

 

[Papasmurf]

It still proves my point that an off guard attack tends to drastically raise its efficiency compared to an attack of equal or even somewhat greater caliber when it's seen in plain sight. One of the few examples of an attack that the recipient saw coming still doing damage (when the attacker is weaker) would be the Final Flash really, while off guard attacks definitely do more damage judging by the fact that Shen only being moderately damaged by Yamcha's Sokidan proved how superior he was.

Cell's feat is still one not replicated to the same extent of damage in the franchise from weaker fighters outside of pretty clear outliers in modern material like Sorbet's ring. The Final Flash example isn't quite as comparable either when Cell was clearly holding back, compared to Gohan having no reason to hold back the level of Ki he had when his goal was to get to Vegeta ASAP and, even with us agreeing the gap between them isn't that great, we've never seen another case where a stronger character was so severely weakened by an attack from an inferior one despite those instances being far more off-guard when characters weren't even aware of the attack before it hit.

Vegeta was still weaker than the suppressed version of Cell that he fought, to the extent that Cell tanked Vegeta's kick to his neck, is my point.

Gohan wouldn't hold back in general since his drive at that point was to kill Cell and avenge his father. Doesn't mean off-guard attacks at near-equal levels (I never denied Cell was fairly close to Gohan) wouldn't be drastically more effective than if Gohan had defended himself.

Wouldn't prove shit if off guard attacks didn't mean that much, and we know they mean quite a lot considering that Piccolo (while exhausted and beaten) blasted a hole clean through Goku's shoulder when he was previously much more exhausted.

Not only were both fighters basically equal at that point, but it's not as though Goku's durability was at its peak either when he'd just endured Piccolo's strongest attack and the Meteor Combination he used following it probably drained a hefty portion of his Ki. Not really the same as two fresh fighters.

It was stated that Galu had taken little damage from Piccolo's explosion attack, and Piccolo being on the receiving end of the Meteor Combination (and clearly being shown to be unable to counterattack, proving his exhaustion as previously stated by Galu) means that he would've taken a lot more damage than the ki loss Galu would have suffered from executing the attack.

Gohan still failing to acknowledge that Cell was the stronger fighter, even though he's not that arrogant of a character tells me Cell isn't really stronger.

SS2 Gohan is, without exaggeration, the most arrogant version of Gohan though, something illustrated very well in the very chapter he receives the injury with how much he underestimated Cell.

And the angling of the panel where Gohan tries to defend Vegeta hardly suggests he was prepared at all.

It can even be debated if Gohan's position even counts as being off guard when he had full knowledge the attack was coming and the defensive property of Ki can cover the whole body if necessary or be brought to the parts necessary to defend (eg. SSJ Galu focusing his Ki into his finger against Trunks). Again, we've never seen a case of a character using their body as a human shield in such a way and taking such damage from a weaker fighter.

Gohan's spirit was broken by the time that he lost use of his arm and over half his ki. If Cell had truly been stronger, I doubt that SSJ2 Gohan's innate arrogance would still inhibit him from acknowledging that Cell was superior.

Piccolo also stated that with his arms and legs broken, Galu would be done in by a fairly weak attack compared to the one he tanked earlier. This shows not being in a position to defend is more or less the same as being off guard, plus Gohan seemed shocked when he took that attack (and was shocked that Cell was stronger than he thought). I don't think Gohan seeing the attack really means much since he had no way to defend against it when rushing to save Vegeta. It'd be like saying anime Piccolo wasn't off guard when he rushed to save Galu against Freeza's Death Beam.

I agree the gap between Gohan and Cell isn't large, because of Cell's statement that he powered up like Gohan, but I don't see Cell as the superior of the two. I think if that was the case it'd be stated.

I can concede that Gohan's damage may be due to how severely he underestimated his power up as he said immediately after. However, Cell also implies around the same time that this wasn't his full power with how he said he was done playing around.

I don't think words like "playing" really mean much. Galu said that he was done playing with Fat Boo too, and we know that he wasn't massively superior to him when he let a tenth of the Earth get blown up because he couldn't afford to tank Boo's Kamehameha (even though with Kid Boo, he later said that his Kamehameha was superior).

Toriyama still devoted 2 chapters to Trunks killing fodder like the future cyborgs or 1st form Cell, so I don't think the "Toriyama wanted to rush things" argument still has much room to stand.

The chapters with Trunks were a necessary sendoff to his character when considering him just returning to his future lacked much catharsis for his character with how little he got to do in the arc as a whole though.

If Toriyama really felt like rushing things he could have spent less than two full weeks drawing Trunks' conclusion to his character arc, since it could have just skipped ahead to Trunks meeting future Cell, with him flashbacking to killing the cyborgs 3 years earlier. Toriyama did end the EoZ segment in just two chapters after all, and that was a conclusion to literally everything and not just one character's story arc.

Not to mention that nobody in the Boo arc gives all that much respect to Cell outside of the statement about him being compared to Dabura,

Which just goes to show how powerful Galu and Vegeta had become, with Goku talking about how Dabura would've been a terrifying opponent not too long ago.

while Gohan was used as a benchmark for superior characters like SSJ2

Gohan did overpower Cell by the end, so he'd still be the biggest benchmark when it came to new peaks in power. Prior to the beam struggle though, it's fairly debatable.

Yeah but that peak displayed by Gohan was only maintained for a few seconds. The narrative of the whole Boo arc in general universally paints that surpassing SSJ2 Gohan is a bigger feat than surpassing Cell (regardless of form).

Regardless of the validity of the Dragon Books or the anime scaling to the fight, you also have Daizenshuu 2's statement on SPC and various recent translations of it suggesting the most accurate translation of it being that he became the strongest being at the time.

Most of them word it as "his" strongest existence rather than him just being the strongest fighter in the Cell arc period.

 

[SSJ2]

It's also worth noting that the damage given/taken at Super Saiyan 2 tier is dramatically higher than at any other level.

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P6.1-2
Context: after Majin Boo quickly reaches full power
Kaioshin: “Th-that’s impossible…Wh-why has Goku’s damage energy [filled it up] already…!?”
Gohan: “…I-I know…! Father is fighting at a level that has further surpassed Super Saiyan…Vegeta probably is too…If two incredible powers like that clash, th-the damage is astounding too…!

So even if Gohan wasn't 100% off guard, he was still off guard enough that the damage from that attack proved to be critical.

 

[Papasmurf]

Yeah, Toriyama also noted this earlier with stuff like Cell being horribly damaged from just two (seemingly non-full power) hits from Gohan, and Buff Cell being forced to regurgitate #18 in just one kick to the head from Gohan. Buff Cell wasn't noted to be a lot weaker than Gohan either.