DBS Manga Powa Level list

[Pocket-Gog~]

Rules, I'll be ignoring the canonical power levels, the realm of the Gods is so unfathomably gigantic that the numbers would be ridiculous.

Battle of Gods:


Goku (Base): 1
Goku (Super Saiyan): 50
Goku (Super Saiyan 2): 100
Goku (Super Saiyan 3): 400
Goku (Super Saiyan Goddo): 10,000

Vegeta (Base): 0.9
Vegeta (Super Saiyan): 49
Vegeta (Super Saiyan 2): 99
Vegeta (Super Saiyan 2, enraged): Aids

Beerus: 100,000

Whis: 200,000

Resurrection of F:

Freeza (First form pre training): 0.01
Freeza (First form post training): 300
Freeza (Finial form post training): 1000
Freeza (Golden Form): 55,000*
Freeza (Golden Form tired): 20,000 and dropping.

Goku (base): 1100
Goku (Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan): 40,000*

Vegeta (base): 1050
Vegeta (Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan): 39,000*

*Pay attention to this for the next two arcs
*and this
*and this

Universe 6 arc:

Champa: 100,000*

Vados: 200,100*

*Champa and Beerus are pretty much equal. What difference between them is that Champa is overweight.
*I say Vados has a slight advantage over Whis.

Goku (Base): 2
Goku (Super Saiyan): 40
Goku (Super Saiyan God): 10,100
Goku (Super Saiyan Blue): 50,000

Vegeta (Base): 1.5
Vegeta (Super Saiyan): 39
Vegeta (Super Saiyan Blue): 49,999

Magneta: trash

Botamo: trash

Frost (First form): 0.5
Frost (Third Form): 1
Frost (Finial Form) 3

Cabba (Base): 1.5
Cabba (Super Saiyan) 39

Hit(Not full power): 40
Hit(Full power): 9,999

Future Trunks arc:


Future Trunks(Base): 2
Future Trunks(Super Saiyan): 50
Future Trunks(Super Saiyan 2): 400*

*SSJ3 Goku and SSJ2 Trunks are equal

Goku (Base): 2
Goku (Super Saiyan): 40
Goku (Super Saiyan God): 10,100
Goku (Super Saiyan Blue): 50,000
Goku (Completed Super Saiyan Blue): 50,000*

Vegeta (Base): 1.5
Vegeta (Super Saiyan): 39
Vegeta (Super Saiyan 2, plot): 800
Vegeta (Super Saiyan Blue): 49,999
Vegeta (Super Saiyan Blue, Super Saiyan God): 49,999*

*Completed Super Saiyan Blue isn't a boost in power. It's just a more stable version of Super Saiyan Blue.
*Same as above.

Zamasu(Present): trash
Zamasu(Future): 400

Goku Black(Base): 800
Goku Black(SSJ): 1200
Goku Black(Super Saiyan Rose): 45,000

Merged Zamasu: 50,000

Merged Zamasu(Collective): A fuck ton of 50,000

Zen'Oh: Stronger than all.

I'll do ToP once it's finish.

 

[Pyro]

C0mpl3ted Bloo is a power-up, bruh, unless the Saiyans were capped at like 25% of its total power output the whole time.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

C0mpl3ted Bloo is a power-up, bruh, unless the Saiyans were capped at like 25% of its total power output the whole time.

Completed Super Saiyan Blue is as powerful as Super Saiyan Blue. The only real difference between CSSJB, and SSJB is that CSSJB can go at full power for far longer periods of time.

Goku and Vegeta both tried to beat the insane power drain of Super Saiyan Blue, Goku did it through CSSJB, and Vegeta did it through SSJG and SSJB combo.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

^ You forgot the part where Vegeta says Goku has sealed Blue's overwhelming power inside his body, making him stronger. That's why PSSJB lacks and aura and that's why Goku was on the verge of collapsing during the fight; all the power of the form was locked inside him, like a bottle about to overflow.

Spoiler

PSSJB can't be the same as SSJB. Vegeta said Goku was the only one who could fight Zamasu and that he was their only hope, what wouldn't make sense if Vegeta can just use his bursts tatic and hold Zamasu down for a while.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

^ You forgot the part where Vegeta says Goku has sealed Blue's overwhelming power inside his body, making him stronger. That's why PSSJB lacks and aura and that's why Goku was on the verge of collapsing during the fight; all the power of the form was locked inside him, like a bottle about to overflow.

Spoiler

The full page only proves my point. Goku is sealing the power of SSJB inside of his body, this is how he has managed to overcome the Stamina Drain. Vegeta doesn't say Goku's gotten stronger, only that he's managed to find a way to fight at full 100% of his power at longer periods of time. The full page only explains how Goku has achieved Completed Super Saiyan Blue.

PSSJB can't be the same as SSJB. Vegeta said Goku was the only one who could fight Zamasu and that he was their only hope, what wouldn't make sense if Vegeta can just use his bursts tatic and hold Zamasu down for a while.

Toyotaro isn't exactly the most stunning writer around at his best, and the finale of the Zamasu arc in the manga is rife full of inconsistencies, and asspulls. Maybe Merged Zamasu could have exploited the moments when Vegeta went Super Saiyan God? I dunno.

 

[ahill1]

I mean, I think that's indeed what's implied by the dialogue you posted... but we still have Vegeta, upon swallowing a senzu and recovering his stamina, failing to compete against Black in SSJB. So would Vegeta instantly lose a lot of power even though he just ate the Senzu and attacked right outta the gate?

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

I mean, I think that's indeed what's implied by the dialogue you posted... but we still have Vegeta, upon swallowing a senzu and recovering his stamina, failing to compete against Black in SSJB. So would Vegeta instantly lose a lot of power even though he just ate the Senzu and attacked right outta the gate?

I'd seriously chalk that up to the stamina drain. Vegeta was completely humiliating Black with the Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan Blue combo... which Vegeta only used to beat Super Saiyan Blue's stamina drain. That or it's simply bad writing, which is easily more likely.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

You said Vados is slightly stronger than Whis and yet you put her twice stronger than Whis?

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

You said Vados is slightly stronger than Whis and yet you put her twice stronger than Whis?

My bad. :dawae

 

[ahill1]

I mean, I think that's indeed what's implied by the dialogue you posted... but we still have Vegeta, upon swallowing a senzu and recovering his stamina, failing to compete against Black in SSJB. So would Vegeta instantly lose a lot of power even though he just ate the Senzu and attacked right outta the gate?

I'd seriously chalk that up to the stamina drain. Vegeta was completely humiliating Black with the Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan Blue combo... which Vegeta only used to beat Super Saiyan Blue's stamina drain. That or it's simply bad writing, which is easily more likely.

Yeah, but when using the SSJG, Vegeta still spent some time in SSJB when attacking Black... he was reverting back quickly, but the Blue form was still being used in a short frame for attack purpose. That's the same thing as Vegeta did when getting the Senzu and attacking Black, basically.

That's using it to attack... yet his punch completely failed to overwhelm Black. If you were to argue that Vegeta did lose like more than 50% by attacking him in that instance, wouldn't you say that switching to Blue in the attack moment would also have that draining effect?

That's why I think that, even though the dialogue makes things weird (as the emphasis was totally on the form's heavy draining), there was also a boost in power when Vegeta trained in the RoSaT and when Goku kept the aura inside himself. I'd just chalk it up to weird dialogue, probably.

If SSJB has that much of an effect liability, shouldn't Goku also fail to oberwhelm Hit when transforming into one, as that was basically what Vegeta did upon swallowing the Senze bean? Goku was in SSJG, then leveled up and broke through Hit's timeskip... I can't imagine that the state would have that much of a draining effect that would bring someone from overwhelming Black to stalemating a fused state with his other self in, like, 2 seconds... in that case, even going as far as to spend sometime in Blue (which Vegeta was doing post RoSaT) would be problematic.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

Yeah, but when using the SSJG, Vegeta still spent some time in SSJB when attacking Black... he was reverting back quickly, but the Blue form was still being used in a short frame for attack purpose. That's the same thing as Vegeta did when getting the Senzu and attacking Black, basically.

That's using it to attack... yet his punch completely failed to overwhelm Black.

To be completely honest, with how Toyotaro portrays Super Saiyan Blue, I really would say the stamina drain is flat out that bad. However, there was a brief scuffle between Goku Black and Vegeta, and Goku Black was gaining Zenkai's from battling Vegeta to boot. You could say Vegeta was losing while Goku Black was gaining. However, I do admit it is a stretch.

Spoiler

If you were to argue that Vegeta did lose like more than 50% by attacking him in that instance, wouldn't you say that switching to Blue in the attack moment would also have that draining effect?

As Goku explains, Vegeta's switching into Blue the very instant he attacks. The transition is so fast that Black didn't realise it until later in their fight, and Trunks had to have it be explained by Goku. The whole entire point of SSJB and SSJG combo is that Vegeta is only using Blue in sudden bursts to maximise the power output of the form, while managing to avoid it's drain of power.

Spoiler

That's why I think that, even though the dialogue makes things weird (as the emphasis was totally on the form's heavy draining), there was also a boost in power when Vegeta trained in the RoSaT and when Goku kept the aura inside himself. I'd just chalk it up to weird dialogue, probably.

Well it's flat out the explanation that Toyotaro has provided for how these forms work, I don't want to contradict one of the few times where this franchise has given us an explanation for how something works. There's no power boost, it's in the same vein of Mastered Super Saiyan where they have to work out the most efficient ways to use the form.

If SSJB has that much of an effect liability, shouldn't Goku also fail to oberwhelm Hit when transforming into one, as that was basically what Vegeta did upon swallowing the Senze bean? Goku was in SSJG, then leveled up and broke through Hit's timeskip... I can't imagine that the state would have that much of a draining effect that would bring someone from overwhelming Black to stalemating a fused state with his other self in, like, 2 seconds... in that case, even going as far as to spend sometime in Blue (which Vegeta was doing post RoSaT) would be problematic.

Goku didn't suffer the effects of SSJB when he overwhelmed Hit's Time Skip, because as he explains he did the same trick Vegeta did. Transforming into SSJB in a single instant to maximise the power output.

 

[ahill1]

I know that Goku used the same trick as Vegeta when switching to Blue against Hit, my point was that both Goku and Vegeta would still spend some time in Blue when using it to attack. Even if they quickly reverted back to SSJG, if Vegeta lost like more than 50% of his powers whilst attacking Black, why wouldn't Goku and Vegeta also lose power in Blue when using it to attack?

The fact that they were using Blue in bursts still doesn't change the fact that they kept the Blue state turned on in the attack moment. That's what I'm trying to say. Even though Vegeta was reverting quickly, Goku still spent more time in the Blue state, using it to punch Hit and launch a KMHMH:

I think it'd be a stretch to say Goku didn't use Blue to the point his power would be drained pretty quickly while at the same time arguing Vegeta's very brief usage was already enough to eat most of his stamina.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

I know that Goku used the same trick as Vegeta when switching to Blue against Hit, my point was that both Goku and Vegeta would still spend some time in Blue when using it to attack. Even if they quickly reverted back to SSJG, if Vegeta lost like more than 50% of his powers whilst attacking Black, why wouldn't Goku and Vegeta also lose power in Blue when using it to attack?

Once again, the whole entire point of that scene was that they were using Blue so quickly that the stamina drain didn't kick in. This is the entire logic behind the Super Saiyan God, and Super Saiyan Blue combo which Vegeta has been doing.

The fact that they were using Blue in bursts still doesn't change the fact that they kept the Blue state turned on in the attack moment.

I'm going to repeat myself again. They used the blue state in an instant, to maximise the energy output, and avoid the stamina drain that Blue has in the manga. This is the explanation the series offered to us. Flat out.

That's what I'm trying to say. Even though Vegeta was reverting quickly, Goku still spent more time in the Blue state, using it to punch Hit and launch a KMHMH:

I think it'd be a stretch to say Goku didn't use Blue to the point his power would be drained pretty quickly while at the same time arguing Vegeta's very brief usage was already enough to eat most of his stamina.

Yes, because Toyotaro fucked up by having the exchange between Goku Black and Vegeta be so short. It's inconsistent, and some sloppy writing. However, the series on a whole is littered with inconsistent moments like that.

 

[ahill1]

Once again, the whole entire point of that scene was that they were using Blue so quickly that the stamina drain didn't kick in. This is the entire logic behind the Super Saiyan God, and Super Saiyan Blue combo which Vegeta has been doing.

And I'll repeat myself again: I KNOW that they used the SSJG to conserve the Blue's stamina. You don't need to repeat the same point again and again like a broken record. Are you confused about something? Didn't you see me acknowledging this some posts ago? In case you didn't, just reread my first and subsequent posts. Don't talk like I haven't been able to grasp a simple concept like this. The fact that it was the entire point of SSJG DOESN'T change the fact that Vegeta STILL turned into a Blue for attack purposes... like he did when he charged at Zamasu upon swallowing the Senzu bean.

I'm going to repeat myself again.

No need to. I didn't fail to understand your point. I just noticed it wasn't that much relevant.

They used the blue state in an instant, to maximise the energy output, and avoid the stamina drain that Blue has in the manga. This is the explanation the series offered to us. Flat out.

Aware about this. Did you see me going against this dialogue? No need to try driving this point home anylonger.

Yes, because Toyotaro fucked up by having the exchange between Goku Black and Vegeta be so short. It's inconsistent, and some sloppy writing. However, the series on a whole is littered with inconsistent moments like that.

I agree, it's inconsistent... hence why I think assuming Vegeta got a power boost upon training in the RoSaT is also a far assessment, despite the dialogue seemingly painting it as a stamina thing. Vegeta swallowed a Senzu and attacked right outta the gate. He used it to attack, much like how he was quickly switching to Blue in the attack moment.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Also Goku and Vegeta are always equal.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

I agree, it's inconsistent... hence why I think assuming Vegeta got a power boost upon training in the RoSaT is also a far assessment, despite the dialogue seemingly painting it as a stamina thing. Vegeta swallowed a Senzu and attacked right outta the gate. He used it to attack, much like how he was quickly switching to Blue in the attack moment.

However, it's not the explanation the story went with, Vegeta wasn't even suggested to have powered up. To say Vegeta got a massive power up is quite literally head canon, one I have no interest in adhering too. It only serves so that the power level list looks more neater.

 

[ahill1]

I agree, it's inconsistent... hence why I think assuming Vegeta got a power boost upon training in the RoSaT is also a far assessment, despite the dialogue seemingly painting it as a stamina thing. Vegeta swallowed a Senzu and attacked right outta the gate. He used it to attack, much like how he was quickly switching to Blue in the attack moment.

However, it's not the explanation the story went with, Vegeta wasn't even suggested to have powered up. To say Vegeta got a massive power up is quite literally head canon, one I have no interest in adhering too. It only serves so that the power level list looks more neater.

It isn't totally headcanon when Vegeta still failed to compete with Black upon getting a senzu bean. If he lost, like, more than half power by merely charging at him, then the same can be said about their 2nd round, in which Vegeta still used Blue to attack... yes, he was utilizing the SSJG as a way to avoid the vast draining the Blue suffers from, but he still spent a while in the Blue form if he was still using it to punch the shit outta Black.

I am just saying that there isn't a definitive answer... the manga, regarding this, seems contradictory enough that both answers can be given as a way to rationalize the situation.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

It isn't totally headcanon when Vegeta still failed to compete with Black upon getting a senzu bean. If he lost, like, more than half power by merely charging at him, then the same can be said about their 2nd round, in which Vegeta still used Blue to attack... yes, he was utilizing the SSJG as a way to avoid the vast draining the Blue suffers from, but he still spent a while in the Blue form if he was still using it to punch the shit outta Black.

I'm going to reply to this with another question, was Saiyan Saga Vegeta over double times as durable as Goku? It would make sense, he was capable of taking Kaio Ken x 4 Goku's Kamehameha, and his own full power Galick Gun without taking much damage....

Expect he wasn't. He isn't even 2x more durable than Goku as he repeatedly gets thrashed from there on out.

I am just saying that there isn't a definitive answer...

There is a definitive answer. You are ignoring what the story has told us.

To include this, this is Toyotaro's word on Zamasu's power:

Toyotaro: Zamasu2 actually wasn't all that strong of a character in the original draft I received from Toriyama-sensei. Though immortal, his strength was such that two Super Saiyan Blues were more than enough to take him on. It's precisely because of this that in the original draft things unfolded so that his "immortality" and "Potara time limit" became key, and Goku and Vegeta took turns fighting him. Goku and Vegeta didn't fuse in the original draft. Their personalities made any fusion after the Majin Buu arc impossible. However, I wanted to meet the readers' expectations... And so, I made a scenario where "even if they shouldn't really fuse, now they have absolutely no choice but to fuse".

Toyotaro even clarified on Twitter, that he was also referring to Merged Zamasu and Goku Black as well.

 

[ahill1]

I'm going to reply to this with another question, was Saiyan Saga Vegeta over double times as durable as Goku? It would make sense, he was capable of taking Kaio Ken x 4 Goku's Kamehameha, and his own full power Galick Gun without taking much damage....

Vegeta had his durability highlighted since his introduction. Goku couldn't believe how he could get up despite all the beat he'd get. But this is besides the point, this example doesn't correlate one bit. Vegeta got the shit stomped outta him and couldn't keep up with Goku's higher levels of Kaioken. Meanwhile, Vegeta had just eaten a Senzu and his punch still failed in overwhelming Black. Those are situations completely different that doesn't correlate one bit.

Expect he wasn't. He isn't even 2x more durable than Goku as he repeatedly gets thrashed from there on out.

Ok? What does that have to do with Vegeta still failing to keep up with Black upon getting a Senzu? Seems you just pulled this "comparison" out of nowhere, really.

There is a definitive answer. You are ignoring what the story has told us.

Nope, not ignoring it. Did you miss when I said that the dialogue seems to make things weird? It means I was acknowledging it... but still pointing out the contradiction that the narrative begets.

To include this, this is Toyotaro's word on Zamasu's power:

Which has, absolutely, nothing to do with Vegeta also powering up when training in the RoSaT. I mean, how can you pull up random quotes like this and expect a correlation? Toyotaro was merely saying how Toriyama didn't plan for Zamasu to be this strong, and that he could be handled by the SSJBs without the need of fusion... but due to fanservice, he decided to insert Vegetto in the whole thing... which ended up amounting to nothing.

So, nothing to do with we are discussing here. The points don't even correlate. I am not ignoring anything, I'm simply noticing that there's an apparent contradiction here, and there's nothihg necessarily wrong with choosing one over another given the apparent lack of clarified things. Goku just emphasized the stamina as being a thing... cool. Whichever route you choose, you'd still have to explain things.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

Vegeta had his durability highlighted since his introduction. Goku couldn't believe how he could get up despite all the beat he'd get. But this is besides the point, this example doesn't correlate one bit. Vegeta got the shit stomped outta him and couldn't keep up with Goku's higher levels of Kaioken. Meanwhile, Vegeta had just eaten a Senzu and his punch still failed in overwhelming Black. Those are situations completely different that doesn't correlate one bit.

And yet, with durability apparently 4x higher than what it should be, Vegeta got his shit kicked in by Reecome, etc. It's quite simple why I'm using this as an example, the story stated that Vegeta had a powerlevel of 18K. Yet he obviously survived and tanked damage far beyond that number.

I'm using it as an example because it's what you're doing here. You're claiming one thing, despite the story itself telling a completely different story.

Ok? What does that have to do with Vegeta still failing to keep up with Black upon getting a Senzu? Seems you just pulled this "comparison" out of nowhere, really.

I used this moment because it is inconsistent. The story said one thing, quite bluntly too(Vegeta's powerlevel being 18K), and you are claiming it is an entirely different reality. It's ridiculous.

Nope, not ignoring it. Did you miss when I said that the dialogue seems to make things weird? It means I was acknowledging it... but still pointing out the contradiction that the narrative begets.

You're acknowledging, but your not understanding, nor are you accepting what the story has blatantly told you, the reader.

Which has, absolutely, nothing to do with Vegeta also powering up when training in the RoSaT. I mean, how can you pull up random quotes like this and expect a correlation? Toyotaro was merely saying how Toriyama didn't plan for Zamasu to be this strong, and that he could be handled by the SSJBs without the need of fusion... but due to fanservice, he decided to insert Vegetto in the whole thing... which ended up amounting to nothing.

Yes. It's Toyotaro admitting that Zamasu in all forms isn't that strong. And how two Super Saiyan Blues were more than enough to overwhelm him. Which is evidently the case, as Vegeta when he fixed the stamina drain of Super Saiyan Blue overwhelmed Black, or Goku who was fighting at a continuous 100% of Super Saiyan Blue, went toe to toe with Merged Zamasu.