Did Goku use Kaioken or just his full base power against no-hands Freeza?

ahill1

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I was always conflicted on this one. Did he use Kaioken when engaging no-hands Freeza? Or was that merely him putting forth his true base power?

The full colors seems to lean towards the latter, but in the black and white manga Goku seemed to have some distinctive pupils iirc, which generally coincides with Kaioken.
 

Captain Cadaver

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Close to his true base power. Not only does the Full Colour version make this obvious, but his response once Freeza notes he mustn't be using his full power makes it unlikely he'd be using any variant of Kaioken.
 

SSJ2

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While it generally coincides with Kaioken, it isn't always the case. There are some panels where Goku has black pupils while using Kaioken x10, and then there are some where he has white pupils in between Kaioken x10 bursts.

Anyhow, if you compare the auras of Goku @ no hands Freeza and other instances of Kaioken, the auras look different. Kaioken has a more fiery looking aura. What we saw against no hands Freeza looked like a typical flight aura.
 

ahill1

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Well, if he were using a low level of Kaioken there, then it helps making more sense of Freeza knowing he wasn't using 100%, as Freeza would have at least experienced the technique, even if briefly. Also, weren't Goku's pupils a little like his Kaioken's one when he attacked no-hands Freeza?
 

SSJ2

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then it helps making more sense of Freeza knowing he wasn't using 100%, as Freeza would have at least experienced the technique, even if briefly
Freeza doesn't even know what Kaioken is. Even if he saw Kaioken x2 he'd have no way of knowing that Goku could go higher than that. It's just instinct.
 

ahill1

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Freeza doesn't even know what Kaioken is. Even if he saw Kaioken x2 he'd have no way of knowing that Goku could go higher than that. It's just instinct.
Yeah, but it'd make more sense, at least. It'd be less of a jumping to conclusions. If he didn't even see the technique at all, then that raises more of a question. If he at least saw a glimpse of the technique, it makes more sense for him to base his predictions on.
 

SSJ2

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It's no different than Gonyu estimating Goku's power before knowing about Kaioken.
 

ahill1

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It's no different than Gonyu estimating Goku's power before knowing about Kaioken.
Well, Ginyu at least wasn't so off in his estimations in regards to Goku's base power (85k vs 90k). He didn't know nor experience the Kaioken back then.
 

SSJ2

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I don't see why that matters. They both made predictions based on someone who they had no knowledge of. It's instinct.
 

ahill1

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I don't see why that matters. They both made predictions based on someone who they had no knowledge of. It's instinct.
But Ginyu's instinct revolved around him assigning base Goku based on his look and his observation over base Goku. Freeza at least experienced Kaioken (if we assume Goku used Kaioken), so he had sightly more grounds to base his assumption off.

Ginyu also tangled in a brief clash against base Goku and concluded his full power would be very close to what it actually was. I believe Freeza tangling with low levels of Kaioken would give more resources for him to evaluate Goku's full power... over concluding that over a technique he hadn't even experienced.

I like the 3M number for base Goku because it's very well known and sets a good baseline afterwards.


I like something like this:

Vegeta : 2,400,000
Freeza [post speed increase] : 3,200,000
Son Goku [post Zenkai] : 3,000,000

But if Goku had 2 base powers, then we'd have to assume Goku was like at 2,700,000 at first, which makes the gaps kinda ugly.

But just looking at the black and white manga, Goku seemed to share some Kaioken traits. He had some white-ish pupils and his aura was more intense, resembling that of a Kaioken. It also makes Freeza's prediction of "my 1/2 power can turn you into cosmic dust" more sensible, as in, if he caught a glimpse of Goku's Kaioken, then he has somewhat of a bigger authority in predicting Goku's full power with higher leveis of Kaioken. Still kind of a stretch and makes Freeza like a God in divining one's power, but a lesser proportion nonetheless.

Assuming Goku was initially at 2,700,000 and that supp. Freeza was 2,800,000 and then FP base Goku was 3,000,000 with no-hands Freeza at like 3,250,000 raises some problems to me during Mirai Trunks's arrival. Following the Daiz scaling, placing Piccolo and Vegeta in the middle 3M territory seemed always a sensible approach. If Vegeta is 3,500,000 and Piccolo is 3,200,000, then that'd leave them at higher than no-hands-Freeza, which I kind of don't like. I like to place Piccolo (mirai trunks debut) at the level Freeza used to trounce Vegeta... the no-hands Freeza territory should still be unreachable by Piccolo and Vegeta imo. Vegeta too. So making Goku using the Kaioken would solve this, with Kaioken Goku and no-hands Freeza being still unreachable by Piccolo and Vegeta almost 2 years later. If we assume no-hands Freeza is like 3,250,000 over his more suppressed power against Veggie (2,800,000 or so), then that places Piccolo and Vegeta almost 2 years later at higher than no-hands Freeza... while assiging Piccolo the level Freeza used to fool Vegeta seems more appropriate, leaving then the no-hands Freeza and the level Goku battles against him as a low level Kaioken, way stroner than mecha saga Vegeta and Piccolo.
 
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SSJ2

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I like the 3M number for base Goku because it's very well known and sets a good baseline afterwards.
It sounds like this is the root of the issue. I'm not a fan of the logic of subscribing to a guidebook battle power but then discarding evidence from the official full colour manga. The manga should take precedence imo. I don't care if you use the 3m battle power but it seems like you're trying to justify this logic just to make that work.

But just looking at the black and white manga, Goku seemed to share some Kaioken traits. He had some white-ish pupils and his aura was more intense, resembling that of a Kaioken. It also makes Freeza's prediction of "my 1/2 power can turn you into cosmic dust" more sensible, as in, if he caught a glimpse of Goku's Kaioken, then he has somewhat of a bigger authority in predicting Goku's full power with higher leveis of Kaioken. Still kind of a stretch and makes Freeza like a God in divining one's power, but a lesser proportion nonetheless.
As I said he was also shown with white pupils while not using Kaioken and vice versa.


Kaioken black pupils:

Screenshot-2021-06-18-at-13-45-47-VIZ-Read-a-Free-Preview-of-Dragon-Ball-Z-Vol-10.png


Base white pupils between Kaioken bursts:

Screenshot-2021-06-18-at-13-46-22-VIZ-Read-a-Free-Preview-of-Dragon-Ball-Z-Vol-10.png
Screenshot-2021-06-18-at-13-46-27-VIZ-Read-a-Free-Preview-of-Dragon-Ball-Z-Vol-10.png

So it's not exactly consistent. The Kaioken aura also appears to be more fiery than what we saw against no hands Freeza.
Aura vs no hands Freeza:

Screenshot-2021-06-18-at-13-50-00-VIZ-Read-a-Free-Preview-of-Dragon-Ball-Z-Vol-10.png


Kaioken x2 aura:

Screenshot-2021-06-18-at-13-51-05-VIZ-Read-a-Free-Preview-of-Dragon-Ball-Z-Vol-3.png
Screenshot-2021-06-18-at-13-51-37-VIZ-Read-a-Free-Preview-of-Dragon-Ball-Z-Vol-4.png
Screenshot-2021-06-18-at-13-51-42-VIZ-Read-a-Free-Preview-of-Dragon-Ball-Z-Vol-4.png
Screenshot-2021-06-18-at-13-53-41-VIZ-Read-a-Free-Preview-of-Dragon-Ball-Z-Vol-8.png



Base Goku flight:

Screenshot-2021-06-18-at-13-53-22-VIZ-Read-a-Free-Preview-of-Dragon-Ball-Z-Vol-8.png

Compare the last image of Base Goku in flight with Goku vs no hands Freeza. They look identical aside from the white pupils. That doesn't look like Kaioken as we've seen. The full colour manga corroborates this and I see no reason to discard it.
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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I like the 3M number for base Goku because it's very well known and sets a good baseline afterwards.


I like something like this:

Vegeta : 2,400,000
Freeza [post speed increase] : 3,200,000
Son Goku [post Zenkai] : 3,000,000

But if Goku had 2 base powers, then we'd have to assume Goku was like at 2,700,000 at first, which makes the gaps kinda ugly.

To be fair, it’s never even stated Goku showed two levels. People just assumed he powered up because he took off his orange shirt.
 

SSJ2

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To be fair, it’s never even stated Goku showed two levels. People just assumed he powered up because he took off his orange shirt.
Freeza literally states that he was done warming up, and this was right after Piccolo made it clear that Goku wasn't giving it his all. It's pretty clear both of them upped their levels after this.
 

sei'taer

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Kaio-ken was drawn inconsistent as fuck in that whole sequence. The only difference him using it to start with or using it later makes is if you want to make power levels make sense.

Which they don't make sense even before bringing Kaio-ken into it. There's simply not enough space between Furiza's "over a million line" and the guidebook numbers for base furiza with all the power increases and for them to actually matter to the previous power ups and statements.
 

Hector

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Depending on how you interpret Freeza's later statement, one can argue he didn't even use his full base power.
 
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