Did Pre-Majin Vegeta close the gap on Goku?

[SSJ2]

Majin Vegeta states that he allowed Babidi to control him as he realized the gap between he and Goku would not change. Do you think he meant this statement literally, or simply that Goku would always be at least a step ahead of himself?

 

[ahill1]

I think he meant it in regards to the genius power/ability Goku has.


Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P10.3-4, P11.2-3
Context: after Goku and Vegeta fight for a while
Goku: “Un-unbelievable…I thought I trained considerably in the afterlife…But we’re completely even…You trained more than me…”
Vegeta: “…No, that’s not it…I think I did perform more special training than you, but you’re a greater genius than I am…No matter how much time passed, this gap wouldn’t change…I realized this, when you fought with that monster Babidi sent…It was a shock…That’s why I secretly resolved myself…[ ] At the tournament, the people who knew that pair who Babidi made into his underlings said that they had become far stronger than before…I remembered that, and I thought…That if I were taken over by him too, then the gap between you and me would vanish…And I was right…”

I think the gap reference may be indicating Goku's a greater genius. That although he trained harder, the fact Goku capitalizes his training better and more effectively is a gap that won't change.

 

[Kyo]

His statement is referring to Goku's genius, but the end result should also be that the power gap hasn't closed at all. If it had, then on paper, Vegeta could eventually close it by spending a few more years training, but that's not what the narrative suggests.

 

[ahill1]

His statement is referring to Goku's genius, but the end result should also be that the power gap hasn't closed at all. If it had, then on paper, Vegeta could eventually close it by spending a few more years training, but that's not what the narrative suggests

It could be taken either way. Vegeta trained harder than Goku, but even if training harder didn't suffice as Goku has a bigger talent, then this overall gap in acquiring power would make sense as far as the statement goes. Since Goku had only one day at Earth, it wouldn't matter if the gap shrunk more pertaining to the battle then.

"This gap wouldn't change" referring to Goku's ability to get the most out of his training would be valid, as Vegeta training his ass still couldn't get to the same level as Goku could be a realization that although he could close the power gap, getting to Goku's level would just not be capable. Even more if we look at Babidi drawing Vegeta's powers to his limit and increasing it further and Vegeta still ending = Goku... Showing the limits Vegeta felt there, needed to be increased beyond normal levels to close the gap in power, for his lack of the same ability to equal Goku in power as Vegeta even when under more special training couldn't get him to the same overall level.

 

[ahill1]

Plus, reading the statement from the original source and searching the words meaning and the literal way they were phrased, Vegeta actually stated, more literally, "that no matter how much time passed, the gap (between him and Goku) never changed", or "didn't change". The "wouldn't" by Herms kinda gave a future sentiment that in the original wasn't present, as いつまでたっても その差は変わらなかった speaks more about his assessment on past and ongoing experiences. I think the gap wouldn't change would capture better Vegeta kinda giving up and resigning himself, but it's a little deviation from the original, which implies more a persistent existence of the gap.

There's also the phrase きさまはオレの どんきい さらに上をいく天才 which translates more to "you're a genius who always goes beyond my reach", with the sentence indicating more "going further above", which aligns with the fact of Goku being a genius with martial arts prowess always going beyond Vegeta's reach no matter his efforts. The fact Goku was already beyond Vegeta's reach but Vegeta was stressing that, speaks more about the fact he thinks he has caught up to and surpassed but Goku's geniuses just outdo his "more special training and obsession", which kinda aligns with him emphasizing in the CGs how despite the training he performed in the RoSaT for the 2nd time, he couldn't surpass Goku, since the bastard is a genius! ... Despite the initial belief he had done so and having had bridged the gap a lot.

Basically "That's not exactly it. Certainly, even though I think I have undergone special training surpassing yours, you're a genius who continuously goes beyond my level... That gap between us didn't change (or never changed)... I realized it when you were fighting that monster sent by Babidi"

So the key point to me is that Vegeta wasn't fixating in a specific numerical value that remained unchanged, but the persistence of a gap that he perceived as not able to surpass, more like that despite any specific improvement numerically, the crucial dynamic of Goku being ahead of Vegeta, even in an intangible manner, still persists no matter the efforts... Seeing his weakness before Goku's overall genius nature and creativity in spite of his huge training and obsession.

 

[Kyo]

words words words

 

[ahill1]

words words words

Read you fucker

 

[DBZAOTA482]

Just from the brief burst of SSJ2 power, Vegeta realized that Goku was still far stronger than him. Getting stronger wasn't the only reason he allowed Babidi to possess him but it's still a reason.

 

[Hector]

Majin Vegeta states that he allowed Babidi to control him as he realized the gap between he and Goku would not change. Do you think he meant this statement literally, or simply that Goku would always be at least a step ahead of himself?

In my books, the gap had narrowed by the beginning of the Buu Saga.

 

[Warmmedown]

I think he meant it in regards to the genius power/ability Goku has.


Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P10.3-4, P11.2-3
Context: after Goku and Vegeta fight for a while
Goku: “Un-unbelievable…I thought I trained considerably in the afterlife…But we’re completely even…You trained more than me…”
Vegeta: “…No, that’s not it…I think I did perform more special training than you, but you’re a greater genius than I am…No matter how much time passed, this gap wouldn’t change…I realized this, when you fought with that monster Babidi sent…It was a shock…That’s why I secretly resolved myself…[ ] At the tournament, the people who knew that pair who Babidi made into his underlings said that they had become far stronger than before…I remembered that, and I thought…That if I were taken over by him too, then the gap between you and me would vanish…And I was right…”

This makes no sense to me. How would Vegeta know what training Goku did? Maybe Goku had a 410G machine. Maybe Goku had an actual training partner. Maybe Goku could recover faster because he's listening to Halo by Beyonce (first AMV I liked) dead. Maybe Goku started training earlier than Vegeta (we know he probably did, cuz Vegeta went emo). It's just a dumb thing for Vegeta to say. Plothole.

Anyway, idk what Shinji's weed dealer and Lemonade are thinking "genius" is, since they haven't specified.
It can be (A) the genius of knowing how to train better to increase power level or it can be (B) fight IQ/skill genius (B).

If it's A, then there was just a PL gap and the Majin boost closed it.

If it's B, then Vegeta had the same PL as Goku but felt he would lose due to Goku's skill, but the Majin boost closed the combat gap by taking Vegeta's PL higher than Goku's, to make up for the skill gap (eg, if Goku's quick-thinking made his moves quicker, Vegeta's increased PL would give him the speed to make up for his slower thinking).

Vegeta says he realised the gap during the Yakon fight.

When Vegeta watches the Yakon fight (ch. 451), he tells Kaio "Shut up and watch...he's got a plan. He's no fool", which could be acknowledging battle smarts, but at that point Goku hasn't done anything clever. And when Yakon RIPs it shows Vegeta's immediate thoughts, which are "It looks like Kakarott can exceed the level of a SSJ", which is only related to battle power and has nothing to do with fight IQ/skill. If he was thinking FIQ/skill, then surely he'd think something about it afterwards, rather than "exceed the level of a SSJ". So based on that, it was about battle power only.

The gap is "exceed SSJ". The "genius" is the ability to figure out how to get new forms. Vegeta didn't know how to achieve SSJ2 himself and had just made his SSJ1 (and ASSJ?) as strong as possible. He knew this was too weak to beat SSJ2 Goku, so he used the Majin Boost to become "far stronger" and basically become SSJ2.

Vladamir PutinxVegeta

 

[ahill1]

This makes no sense to me. How would Vegeta know what training Goku did? Maybe Goku had a 410G machine. Maybe Goku had an actual training partner. Maybe Goku could recover faster because he's listening to Halo by Beyonce (first AMV I liked) dead. Maybe Goku started training earlier than Vegeta (we know he probably did, cuz Vegeta went emo). It's just a dumb thing for Vegeta to say. Plothole.

Anyway, idk what Shinji's weed dealer and Lemonade are thinking "genius" is, since they haven't specified.
It can be (A) the genius of knowing how to train better to increase power level or it can be (B) fight IQ/skill genius (B).

If it's A, then there was just a PL gap and the Majin boost closed it.

If it's B, then Vegeta had the same PL as Goku but felt he would lose due to Goku's skill, but the Majin boost closed the combat gap by taking Vegeta's PL higher than Goku's, to make up for the skill gap (eg, if Goku's quick-thinking made his moves quicker, Vegeta's increased PL would give him the speed to make up for his slower thinking).

Vegeta says he realised the gap during the Yakon fight.

When Vegeta watches the Yakon fight (ch. 451), he tells Kaio "Shut up and watch...he's got a plan. He's no fool", which could be acknowledging battle smarts, but at that point Goku hasn't done anything clever. And when Yakon RIPs it shows Vegeta's immediate thoughts, which are "It looks like Kakarott can exceed the level of a SSJ", which is only related to battle power and has nothing to do with fight IQ/skill. If he was thinking FIQ/skill, then surely he'd think something about it afterwards, rather than "exceed the level of a SSJ". So based on that, it was about battle power only.

The gap is "exceed SSJ". The "genius" is the ability to figure out how to get new forms. Vegeta didn't know how to achieve SSJ2 himself and had just made his SSJ1 (and ASSJ?) as strong as possible. He knew this was too weak to beat SSJ2 Goku, so he used the Majin Boost to become "far stronger" and basically become SSJ2.

Vladamir PutinxVegeta
View attachment 3443

It doesn't make much sense in-universe, but I think if he made a huge effort when training, then he could think overall his training was more rigorous than Goku. I think the fact Goku suggested firstly that Vegeta trained more than him, may have also prompted Vegeta to confirm that he indeed did more special training, as Goku himself suggested that. Though the think warranting correction from Vegeta is that even though the training was more intense, it still wouldn't be able to catch up to Goku, as Goku has a bigger talent. Though I wonder why he needed to point that, that he still couldn't catch up, and that Goku remained a step ahead of him overall when that should be obvious for Goku, since Bobbidi increased his power for him to = Goku, hence he wasn't equal on his own...... Unless only Vegeta figured out the fact Bobbidi also increases one's power and Goku didn't, as Vegeta also felt like explaining he thought about it once he saw people commenting how Spopovitch wasn't that strong before. That's still weird though, as Goku seemingly noticed that with Spopovitch by noticing he had power superior to his natural abilities. Just weird overall imo.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

It is refering that Vegeta would always be inferior to Goku, not neccesarily that they have the same gap of a time.

 

[DBZAOTA482]

In my books, the gap had narrowed by the beginning of the Buu Saga.

Dunno about that, it took Goku's briefly flaring his SSJ2 aura to realize he's still out of his league.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think it just means Goku >> Vegeta. I don’t see why his reaction should be any different just because he’s 2 shot fodder now instead of 1 shot.

 

[Hector]

Dunno about that, it took Goku's briefly flaring his SSJ2 aura to realize he's still out of his league.

So what?

 

[DBZAOTA482]

So what?

So the gap is still big, just not quite as large as it was before.

 

[Hector]

So the gap is still big, just not quite as large as it was before.

I don't get your logic. How does what you say prove how big the gap is? And when did I say the gap isn't big anymore?