Did Vegeta have Grade 3 against Cell?

[Captain Cadaver]

Many would take Trunks' speculation on Vegeta's actions as fact, but should we really? Even ignoring that Trunks is far from the best judge of fighting, Vegeta not using it seems inconsistent with what he's shown prior when backed into a corner. Against Goku and Freeza, his first course of action when completely overpowered was to lose all rationality and pour out everything he had. We're meant to believe that in the story arc where his ego is at its peak and his rationality at its lowest, that Vegeta wouldn't bother using his strongest form when the situation became hopeless?
There's also Kuririn being able to tell Trunks had a power that surpassed Vegeta when only standing next to him, yet was given no indication Vegeta was holding anything back whilst fighting. Iirc, Daizenshuu 2 only confirms Future Trunks as a user of Grade 3 as well.

The only actual evidence suggesting Vegeta had the form is him scoffing it off and not seeming surprised by it when Future Trunks uses it in the Super anime and considering how that goes against what evidence we've been given for the contrary, it could be easily assumed he achieved it after the Cell Games during his training to surpass Gohan.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Nope, both Goku and Vegeta figured out the weakness of Grade III and abandoned it immediately. It was Trunks who was stupid enough to not notice the weakness of the form until Cell pointed it out. Also you pointed out that Vegeta could've used that form out of rage but that's just a speculation. Vegeta's speed was never doubted by anyone for being so slow like Trunks was.

 

[Future Warrior]

The way I see it, Vegeta knew of the drawbacks of Grade 3 and simply chose not to take it a step further soon after reaching Grade 2. Although Goku seemingly achieves both forms at the same, he's always been made out to be a better genius than his rival.

I also find it ridiculous that Vegeta wouldn't have known Trunks had more power hidden in reserve after spending that much time with him the RoSaT. He probably knew about it and just didn't care since he was using a useless form.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

There is no clear distinction between Grade 2 and Grade 3. Vegeta just buffed his muscles to the extent it didn't greatly affect his speed/stamina.

 

[ahill1]

I always assumed that he did as per Trunks' line, but the points you've raised are fair enough. It could go either way I think, although I'd argue that if he didn't, he at least knew that taking it a step further would be useless.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

[mention]Fearless 2k19[/mention]
[mention]Future Warrior[/mention]

How would you counter Kuririn only noticing the power being held back in Trunks but not Vegeta?

There is no clear distinction between Grade 2 and Grade 3.

Except for an official source like the Daizenshuu classifying them as different stages.

 

[Future Warrior]

@Fearless 2k19
@Future Warrior

How would you counter Kuririn only noticing the power being held back in Trunks but not Vegeta?

My argument was in favor of Vegeta not having Grade 3.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Ah, I guess I was pretty tired when reading your post and took the latter point as implying Vegeta may have had it. Apologies.

 

[Void]

He's clearly drawn with the same grade 3 aura, spikier hair, and bigger muscles in a few panels when he's charging the Final Flash. It would make sense for him to use grade 3 for that attack.

I think Toriyama originally intended to make him grade 3 and then changed his mind. I think the artwork backs that up a bit... you can see Vegeta change size during the Final Flash.

 

[ahill1]

Maybe he instantly turned into Grade 3 in the last moment when firing the Final Flash, hence Cell's surprise

 

[Pyro]

He's clearly drawn with the same grade 3 aura, spikier hair, and bigger muscles in a few panels when he's charging the Final Flash. It would make sense for him to use grade 3 for that attack.

I think Toriyama originally intended to make him grade 3 and then changed his mind. I think the artwork backs that up a bit... you can see Vegeta change size during the Final Flash.

Eh, I didn't notice much of a difference in muscle mass, but the aura definitely spiked when he was charging it up.

 

[SSJ2]

@Fearless 2k19
@Future Warrior

How would you counter Kuririn only noticing the power being held back in Trunks but not Vegeta?

There is no clear distinction between Grade 2 and Grade 3.

Except for an official source like the Daizenshuu classifying them as different stages.

Forget the guidebooks...the manga itself differentiates between 2 and 3.

 

[Void]

He's clearly drawn with the same grade 3 aura, spikier hair, and bigger muscles in a few panels when he's charging the Final Flash. It would make sense for him to use grade 3 for that attack.

I think Toriyama originally intended to make him grade 3 and then changed his mind. I think the artwork backs that up a bit... you can see Vegeta change size during the Final Flash.

Eh, I didn't notice much of a difference in muscle mass, but the aura definitely spiked when he was charging it up.

He definitely looks a little bigger and his hair looks a bit different.

Spoiler

 

[Future Warrior]

He looks exactly the same.

 

[SSJ2]

Trunks would’ve said if he went beyond Grade 2 imo.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

@Fearless 2k19
@Future Warrior

How would you counter Kuririn only noticing the power being held back in Trunks but not Vegeta?

There is no clear distinction between Grade 2 and Grade 3.

Except for an official source like the Daizenshuu classifying them as different stages.

First of all, how the hell did Krillin knew about Trunks's hidden power?

Also, perhaps that the moment Vegeta learned how to use Grade 3 form, he immediately abandoned it after learning its weakness hence why Krillin couldn't tell it while Trunks utilized its full power which probably how Krillin knew about it IMO.

 

[sei'taer]

Grade 2 and 3 are basically the same form.

If vegeta had one he had both.

 

[ahill1]

Grade 3 is highlighted as taking a step further from grade 2. It's basically forcing into your body more power. "I can take it a step further", as said by Goku. But I don't think that because it only necessitates to force more power that you must have attained the grade 3 by attaining grade 2. It still requires quite a good deal of effort, as shown by Trunks. Maybe Vegeta just didn't try to turn into one and therefore couldn't access it the first time.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

First of all, how the hell did Krillin knew about Trunks's hidden power?

Might as well just say "because time travel" when considering it's the only thing Toriyama could do to explain the Cell Arc's rampant contrivances and plot holes.

Also, perhaps that the moment Vegeta learned how to use Grade 3 form, he immediately abandoned it after learning its weakness hence why Krillin couldn't tell it while Trunks utilized its full power which probably how Krillin knew about it IMO.

Trunks had no desire of using Grade 3 whilst Vegeta was still conscious, so by that logic, wouldn't Kuririn have only started to sense it after Vegeta got KO'd?