Do #19/20 have to be stronger than Freeza?

[ahill1]

know a weakened base Goku survived hits from 50% Freeza, or Mr Satan survived hits from Warm Up Cell and Kid Buu.

That's not the point. Would Goku be pulling his punches vs #19? I do not think he would be...therefore #19's defensive and surving feats are important here.

Well, I think the point should be that "surviving" hits isn't enough to quantify a gap, that is, you can't say "this gap should be like this" because the enemy managed to survive hits. Where was it said Freeza was pulling his punches against Goku? The most that was said about him not going all out is when he did that technique that sliced the Namek planet in two, to which Freeza stated he wouldn't use something like that to kill Goku:

Spoiler

That's the most we got about Freeza holding back, me thinks. But then, even if you insist he was still pulling his punches, what about here?

Spoiler

It doesn't seem he was holding back at all there considering he was pretty pissed at Goku for -- albeit superficially --damaging him... I don't think we can minimize a gap merely by the weaker opponent not getting ko'd, even more when we also have Tenshinhan stating #19 could get up as easily as he did because he doesn't feel pain by virtue of being an android, implying it could very well have been a different story were #19 made of flesh and bone:

Spoiler

This basically shows us that the androids' constitution aided a lot in how he reacted to such a beating, although it still has obviously some limits like when #16 got screwed up by Semi Cell.

That same #19 drew blood from Vegeta and knocked him off balance. You see 100% Freeza doing that? I sure don't

That was #19 post though, I was referring to #19 pre absorptions. I don't think #19 pre absorptions does need to be that strong, personally.

#19 post was stated to be far stronger than #19 pre by Gero (and there's no real reason to doubt him this time), yet Vegeta seemed to believe that #19 post doesn't quite live up to the rumors of the androids' strength. This seems to imply that #19 post isn't far stronger than Trunks.

So something like:

#19 post >>> #19 pre
#19 post >> Trunks at best
Or something

If #19 pre were already on par with [Mecha saga] SSJ Trunks, then his post absorption self would be, logically, way above that Trunks, but we still see that, according to Vegeta's comments on his strength after getting punched, he is still not enough to, let's say, hand Trunks' ass back to him.

 

[Victorious]

Ahill do you think 50% Freeza was pulling his punches against base Goku?

Ahill do you think SSJ sick Goku was pulling his punches against #19 pre?


I think 50% Freeza was pulling his punches and SSJ Sick Goku obviously was not. Are you saying Sick Goku was pulling his punches? There are many instances to think a guy is pulling his punches and another instance he is not. For instance Recoome did not pull his punches vs Vegeta, but he did against Gohan. Or SSJ Goku did not pull his punches vs 100% Freeza but did against 50% Freeza...and so on.

 

[ahill1]

Ahill do you think 50% Freeza was pulling his punches against base Goku?

Ahill do you think SSJ sick Goku was pulling his punches against #19 pre?


I think Freeza was pulling his punches and SSJ Sick Goku obviously was not. Are you saying Sick Goku was pulling his punches?

I don't think Freeza was necessarily pulling his punches because none of that was implied... unless you want to think that he was (despite it not being hinted at) only so one-shot gaps would make sense. BTW, Freeza did state he'd use 50% of his powers and that that much power would be enough to turn Goku into smithreens... doesn't that statement -- of using 50% of his powers -- kind of look meaningless if he wouldn't use 50% of his powers to attack Goku? It does imo.

But what about that headbutt displayed in the image below? It doesn't seem like he pulled or held back (to below 50%) there, does it? He was pretty pissed off and attacked Goku with all his 50% might.

We also have Goku SSJ vs 50% Freeza as example of a humongous gap and yet Goku didn' one shot Freeza... take a glance at the panels in which Goku SSJ battled 50% Freeza. He clearly gave no signals that he was holding back on his attacks, and it seemed he was putting effort into his punches given his facial expression. Freeza could still get up from his attacks without sustaining major injuries. I just don't think we can set a gap for Goku SSJ sick vs #19 just based on this latter not getting screwed up from the former's punches.

 

[Victorious]

50% Freeza should be able to easily one shot Kaioken x 10 Goku. So yes 50% Freeza is pulling his punches vs base Goku and even Kaioken x 10 Goku [to a lessor degree of course]. It's the only interpretation that makes any sense.

 

[ahill1]

Was 50% Freeza pulling his headbutt against base Goku as well?

 

[Victorious]

yes obviously.

 

[ahill1]

It doesn't seem to be that way to me... he was fricking pissed off at Goku from what this latter did to him with the Kaioken x20 and attacked him, seemingly, as hard as he could. Notice that Goku was already breathing hard after the KMHMH x20, so he should be obviously been below his base battle power as well... so, to make sense of the one-shot gaps, Freeza would have to hold back to, like, 4,000,000 (assuming base Goku is at 3,000,000) so he wouldn't kill him.

Freeza 50% - 60,000,000 ~ 70,000,000
Goku base - 3,000,000
Goku base (after the KMHMH) 2,500,000
Freeza (holding back in the headbutt, despite stating that he'd have been using 50% of his powers) - 4,000,000 ~ 5,000,000

Really? So, is Freeza pulling his punches to like 4% of his full power -- despite the fact that he stated he'd have been using 50%? Doesn't it feel a bit ridiculous to you? I am assuming, of course, that according to your POV Freeza would have to be holding back to make sense of Goku not getting one-shotted because the Ginyus did get basically one shotted at a 1.5x gap, right? Correct if I'm wrong though.


Also, how about Goku 8k+ vs Nappa [fighting the Z senshi]? You asusme that Nappa was at 4k before 'powering up' to FP against Goku, which would also work better with some of his feats against the Z senshi and by the fact that Goku was too fast for him with a battle power of not so much above 5k... so, Goku didn't one-shot Nappa despite the gap being above 2x. Was Goku pulling his punches there as well?

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Goku's resilience is probably what kept him standing, though that seems a bit odd considering his power was constantly going down. Freeza was definitely pissed during that headbutt, but he didn't really seem too surprised to see Goku still getting up. That tells me he still adhered to not killing Goku so quickly like he said. He just probably wanted to inflict more damage on him.

 

[ahill1]

Goku's resilience is probably what kept him standing, though that seems a bit odd considering his power was constantly going down. Freeza was definitely pissed during that headbutt, but he didn't really seem too surprised to see Goku still getting up. That tells me he still adhered to not killing Goku so quickly like he said. He just probably wanted to inflict more damage on him.

I think #19's resilience due to being an android and thus not feeling pain can add considerably to that, don't you?

I agree that Freeza wasn't trying to kill Goku, but I don't think it means he was pulling his punches to below 50% of his powers. I think he was using 50% of his powers and just trying to avoid using techniques like that one which cut the planet in half that'd surely kill Goku.

 

[GSM123]

SSJ Sick Goku >> SSJ Yardrat Goku

Do you see 100% Freeza surviving and getting up after all those barrages of blows that #19 pre took from even SSJ Yardrat Goku?

Freeza is pretty much fodder to every notable character in the Android saga IMO.

#19 pre absorbtions is at least as strong as SSJ Future Trunks during the Mecha Arc IMO..AT LEAST.

Like Ahill said, Vegeta said #19 post wasn't as strong as he expected, so #19 post can't even stomp Trunks, let alone 19 before sucking that Kamehameha.

It's quite possible due to his stamina constantly falling he couldn't hit as hard or move as fast as he could. This is evidenced by Goku being already out of breath to flight distances Tenshinhan could without breaking a sweat.

 

[Victorious]

Fuck

 

[Victorious]

Well Piccolo wasnt sure whether the Androids were weaker or whether the Z senshi had just grown too strong..implying its possible #19 and #20 post could be much stronger than SSJ Trunks from the Mecha arc. After all...Piccolo wouldnt have had to question anything if #19 and #20 post werent at least capable of taking down Future Trunks from the Mecha arc. So really there is no way #19 and #20 post cant at minimum defeat Future Trunks from the Mecha arc. Though Perhaps they are not godly compared to him as he implied Future #17 and #18 were. But yeah Freeza us total fodder here.

 

[ahill1]

I kind of prefer a moderate approach, honestly. To copy-paste what I have said on Skype:



It's tough to say, but I generally go with #19 pre being noticeably below [Mecha saga] SSJ Trunks due to his post absorptions self being still stated to Vegeta to not match Trunks' story... considering #19 gained a lot of power absorbing Goku's KMHMH, it's hard to fathom Vegeta not considering him as bad as Trunks told them if he were already on par with Trunks imo.

#19 post I have around [Mecha saga] SSJ Trunks, which matches nicely with him being "not as bad as the rumors made him out to be".

But speaking of that, I have always found strange that Vegeta would take into consideration precisely #19's powers post KMHMH and comment on that power... I mean, to comment that #19 (post KMHMH) isn't as bad as the rumors, shouldn't Vegeta be then assuming that the #19 in Trunks' future would end up just as strong as the #19 who absorbed Goku's KMHMH? That seems strange... what do you think?

It's what it is though, considering Vegeta flat out commented on that level of power.

I like to go with this moderate approach... #19 pre being at Mecha Freeza's level and then getting up to Mecha saga SSJ Trunks' level post absorptions sounds fine imo. #20 post maybe at [mecha saga] ssj Goku's level, with Piccolo being a notch above that.

Mecha Freeza - 160,000,000

Android #19 - 160,000,000
~post - 200,000,000

Android #20 - 180,000,000
~post - 220,000,000

Trunks SSJ [Mecha saga] - 200,000,000

Goku SSJ [mecha saga] - 220,000,000
~Sick - 230,000,000

Piccolo - 250,000,000 ~ 260,000,000


Although my placement on then isn't set in stone and is bound to change if we get a set in stone placement for them in Super so long as it's not ridiculously low like 1st form Freeza's level, lmao.

 

[Victorious]

#19 and #20 post for certain need to be above Future Trunks from the Mecha arc for Piccolo's comment to make any sense. Vegeta's comment just means they are not way ahead of him. In fact Vegeta's comment can be interpreted that they are not way ahead of Yardrat Goku IMO. Since it's obvious Yardrat Goku would need a lot of training to ever compete with the Androids Trunks warned about.


Anyway, if you have #19 and #20 above Future Trunks then what's the point of arguing about 100% Freeza in the OP? Who is below Mecha Freeza who is 3 shot fodder to SSJ Future Trunks from the Mecha arc.

Freeza is total trash in the Android saga. Piccolo for instance is without question multifold Freeza IMO. Piccolo would take out Freeza like he did that poor Saibaman.

 

[ahill1]

Yeah, like you see I have them above Freeza as well, I just was on the fence about the evidence... whilst I think they are > Organic Freeza, I don't think there's a pretty strong evidence that speaks for itself.

But like you can see, the weakest android pre absorptions is on par with Mecha Freeza according to my list... which in my opinion sounds fair, he'd then gain a lot of strength after absorbing the KMHMH to the point they'd be now on par with the man that told them the dreadful story... which also matches Vegeta's comment that they weren't as bad as expected.

Piccolo was pretty much talking about just #20 post imo. Even though he used plural as a way to refer to them, they usually do group the androids together like this IMO. We saw that #19 was considered "not as bad as the rumors" by Vegeta, so unless Vegeta and Piccolo both have different perceptions on the androids' powers, I think Piccolo was merely referring to #20 post.

#19 post --> not as bad as the rumors made you out to be
#20 post --> might be in fact as strong as Trunks made you out to be, but maybe not...

It makes sense imo... Vegeta and Piccolo's differing opinions showcases the differing strength of the androids imo. #19 is more easily brushed aside, whereas #20 leads to such an uncertaintity. But now that I think about it if Piccolo was just considering one android to be as strong as Trunks told them out to be the story would have also changed in that aspect since according to Trunks' story both androids were above him and beyond imagjnation, which could lend credence to your opinion that Piccolo was considering them both... hmmm I wonder, although I have problems with it due to Vegeta flat out stating he wasn't as bad without a second thought.


Not to argue against you that Freeza is trash in the androids saga, but what do you think about Tenshinhan as well as Kami bringing up Freeza's defeat by Trunks' hands later on, as if that were still a good deal? There're people who think that might imply Freeza's defeat over Trunks' hands was seen as a better feat than Piccolo trashing #20, otherwise Kami could have referenced that instead, like this:

"Even for you, Piccolo, who defeated #20... and even for Trunks and Vegeta, who are both stronger than you... those enemies were too much"

Not saying this is the case, but that's still some implication someone could make a case about imo.