Do Goku's and co. 'mastered' SSJ form post RoSaT share a bigger multiplier?

[ahill1]

Do you think it does?

There's at least some things supporting it:

The aura when Goku flares up his full power vs Cell seems different, wilder.

Goku doesn't use the grade 2 form against Cell, despite the fact that if he 'could' use it, he'd arguably hold a considerable power advantage... similarly, Vegeta and Trunks don't pump up their SSJ states vs the Cell Juniors, both using simply SSJ, despite the fact that the grade 2 boost (described by Piccolo as pretty considerable) would be more than enough to leave them in a position to outmaneuver the mini Cells... which could point at their post RoSaT SSJ selves already accessing the hightened multiplier the grade forms provide.

There's also this statement from Vegeta:

Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P7.2-7
Tenshinhan: “…Hey, Goku and Gohan were Super Saiyans just now, right? But even so, they were very…how do I say this?...Natural-feeling…”
Piccolo: “…I think there’s no doubt that they were Super Saiyans…However, they’ve trained so that they can exist in that state at an ordinary, everyday level…”
Trunks: “S-so then…When they fight, they’ll [perform] an ev-even more tremendous transformation…!”
Vegeta: “Are you an idiot?...You don’t seem to think things over…They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! [ ] They’ve thought this through…”

Some people take the "even if they raise their power" as Vegeta getting into the point that even if they access the grade-2 like power, which comes with visible body stress, their training allows them to exist in that state without any strain. Basically as if their training allowed them to acclimate the grade 2 (or maybe even higher) power into a form that doesn't suffer from extra burdens.

So the infos have been laid out. What do you think? Maybe if MSSJ shares a 75x or so multiplier, it could give more malleability to the base Saiyans in the Boo arc.

 

[SSJ2]

Goku's quote about it would imply the opposite:

Chapter: 387 (DBZ 193), P10.3, P13.1-4
Context: Goku just achieved Super Saiyan Grade III for the first time.
Gohan: “Ab-absolutely incredible power! You’ll definitely be able to defeat Cell like this!”
[ ]
Goku: “I can’t win like this…Probably not…[ ] With my muscles swelled up like this, my power greatly increases, but it kills my speed. Huge power doesn’t mean anything if I can’t hit my opponent…And it uses up energy at too intense a rate. Balance-wise, regular Super Saiyan is best. I know that well enough…”

After saying that huge power isn't the way to go, wouldn't you find it strange if regular Super Saiyan ended up usurping those forms in power?

I'd rather go with something unorthodox. Maybe the Grade forms don't produce as much power the closer you are to mastering Super Saiyan.

Also I think it would be silly for Goten and Trunks to be born with a higher SSJ multiplier for the sake of it.

 

[ahill1]

Well, yeah, but would Goku give up a considerable power increase in favor of better stamina? I could see it being the case with grade 3, but the grade 2 state didn't really seem that impairing. Trunks even used it to get to Cell faster.

Also, what do you make of Vegeta's statement? Some take that as him implying Goku would be accessing the inflated muscles forms without a body strain, reaction.

 

[SSJ2]

Yes. He directly says that balance is better than power. Grade 2 didn't seem all that impairing but we never saw it used in an equal fight. Grade 2 Vegeta stomped Semi Cell and then got stomped by Perfect Cell. It's quite likely that if he got into a fight similar to Cell vs Goku, he'd lose stamina rapidly. It does beg the question as to why they didn't use it against the Cell Juniors, but maybe Grade 2 wouldn't have given them such a large boost in the Cell Games.

Wait, what? People think Goku would be inflating his muscles? Vegeta literally calls Trunks an idiot for suggesting that they were going to use a transformation.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

What Goku does isn't "balance over power", it's "balance for power". Goku still needs power to fight Cell.

FPSSJ is definitely a stronger form, but not necessarily one with a higher multiplier. All those Grade forms are just variations of SSJ1, so they're always tied to being 50x base. The thing is that Grade 2-3 mix SSJ with buffing up (something Cell shows to be very simple, so it's not a trick limited to SSJs) and Vegeta explains Grade 4 is the same principle, but without the strain or muscles.

Also, what do you make of Vegeta's statement? Some take that as him implying Goku would be accessing the inflated muscles forms without a body strain, reaction.

That doesn't really make any sense because the bulking up is a result of the body strain.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

I'd argue that SSJ post ROSAT has a much smaller multiplier.

 

[ahill1]

So the SSJs pre RoSaT had a multiplier inferior to 50x and only with the grade states could they access it?

@GreatSaiyaman123

 

[ahill1]

I'd argue that SSJ post ROSAT has a much smaller multiplier.

It's possible. I proposed a 75x multiplier here, but I've rolled with a 2.5x multiplier for the SSJs in the Boo arc. So u see how crazy I am lol.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

It's possible. I proposed a 75x multiplier here, but I've rolled with a 2.5x multiplier for the SSJs in the Boo arc. So u see how crazy I am lol.

By Buu Arc SSJ is probably that strong all things considered

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So the SSJs pre RoSaT had a multiplier inferior to 50x and only with the grade states could they access it?

@GreatSaiyaman123

Hell no. It's a 50x boost. The Grade forms just throw some tricks so make it stronger. See if there's a difference between this:

Base Vegeta: 1
~ SSJ: 50
~ SSJ Grade 2: 75

And this:

Base Vegeta: 1
~ Buffed up: 1.5
~ SSJ Grade 2: 75

At the end of the day, those forms are still SSJ1. Unless there's no multiplier at all, base power is chained to SSJ power.

 

[Hector]

I think that Grade forms become less and less effective as one's base power and mastery over SSJ increases.

 

[ahill1]

Hell no. It's a 50x boost. The Grade forms just throw some tricks so make it stronger. See if there's a difference between this:

Base Vegeta: 1
~ SSJ: 50
~ SSJ Grade 2: 75

And this:

Base Vegeta: 1
~ Buffed up: 1.5
~ SSJ Grade 2: 75

At the end of the day, those forms are still SSJ1. Unless there's no multiplier at all, base power is chained to SSJ power.

That doesn't seem implied. They don't power up the base and that base power up reflects on the SSJ's multiplier. Vegeta trabaformed into a SSJ and Piccolo was like ok show me what you can do, Vegeta. And then Vegeta began powering up on top of the SSJ and Piccolo was like "OMG". They are directly powering up the SSJ there, not tying any base increase to the final state. The base is important in the sense that the stronger it is, the stronger the final product will be, not that it's the source of the SSJGs powers.