Do you think this is good enough confirmation that Gohan wasn't using SSJ2 against Dabura?

[Natasha Romanoff]

Gohan says this:

Spoiler

"I think both my father and Vegeta are fighting, both at a level that surpass Super Saiyan. The energy they're expelling must be enormous."

So, basically Gohan thinks that because Goku and Vegeta are fighting at a level beyond SSJ is because they were able to fulfill the kili metter that fast, which tell us that had Gohan been fighting as a SSJ2 he would do the same.

However, imo this is not neccesarily good enough confirmation, but something to think about.

 

[Dagon]

Not really. The energy given to Majin Buu is damage energy. It just means Gohan was not damaged very much regardless of which form he was using.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Yeah, I've thought that it has many weak points too. But SSJ2 Gohan's energy already contributed to get half of the kili meter and severly drained.

 

[Warmmedown]

It sounds like he's surprised because he's never seen Goku or Vegeta achieve SSJ2, so he assumed they would fight as SSJs. (The only other possibility is he assumed they would both agree keep their fight in a lower form to avoid giving Babidi energy).

Although if Gohan was SSJ2 vs Dabura, the above doesn't make sense since Vegeta said he would step in and beat Dabura, because he'd have to have had a massive SSJ1 PL increase since the Cell Games to be able to do that. So if Gohan was SSJ2, he would've guessed Vegeta also has SSJ2.

If he was SSJ1, it makes sense.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Yes, this is a key part of the evidence but there’s generally not one thing that completely solidifies the position. This is certainly one that points in the right direction.

With about 4 or 5 statements we can conclude that if Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2, there would be some severe issues with the dialogue.

In this statement it’s clear, Gohan didn’t necessarily expect them to be fighting at Super Saiyan 2, which makes no sense if Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura.

Essentially we have 3 characters surprised at each other having Super Saiyan 2, which would be impossible if Dabura required Super Saiyan 2.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Yes, this is a key part of the evidence but there’s generally not one thing that completely solidifies the position. This is certainly one that points in the right direction.

With about 4 or 5 statements we can conclude that if Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2, there would be some severe issues with the dialogue.

In this statement it’s clear, Gohan didn’t necessarily expect them to be fighting at Super Saiyan 2, which makes no sense if Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura.

Essentially we have 3 characters surprised at each other having Super Saiyan 2, which would be impossible if Dabura required Super Saiyan 2.

Glad to see you back, I have to say that back on that last debate I wasn't actually calm, but you weren't the issue, rather a heated discussion I had on that day irl, I just apologize myself and I have to say that your approaches are quite good even if I don't agree entirely all the time.

 

[Hector]

SSJ1.5

 

[SSJ2]

It indirectly does tell us that Gohan was not SSJ2. Gohan is treating SSJ2 as being the reason why the damage meter went up quickly. If Gohan and Dabura were both SSJ2 level, it would make no sense for him to make this point when their own fight barely moved the meter.

 

[ahill1]

I think it's a good evidence based on Gohan being surprised and treating SSJ2 as a big deal for Goku and Vegeta to be fighting in...

... Though I don't think the damage is necessarily indicative that Gohan wasn't a SSJ2. Gohan could be a weak SSJ2 in comparison to Vegeta and Goku, thus the damage he suffered wouldn't contribute to energy that much. Since Goku and Vegeta are way stronger than Gohan, then their SSJ2s would naturally be way more catastrophic as far as damage goes, since they are not only SSJ2 but way stronger than Gohan. So Gohan could be a way weaker SSJ2 enough that his energy wouldn't be highly effective in comparison to Vegeta and Goku, who were way stronger.

Besides, Gohan wasn't heavily damaged by Dabura nor anything. He got up of the war and didn't show signs of any meaningful damage, while Goku and Vegeta damaged themselves way more through constant ferocious attacks to one another.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Gohan could be a weak SSJ2 in comparison to Vegeta and Goku

We know he can't be that weak compared to Goku. Goku was severely weakened by the time he filled up the Buu meter. This confirms Gohan is at least somewhat relative to Goku.

 

[Dagon]

Although if Gohan was SSJ2 vs Dabura, the above doesn't make sense since Vegeta said he would step in and beat Dabura, because he'd have to have had a massive SSJ1 PL increase since the Cell Games to be able to do that. So if Gohan was SSJ2, he would've guessed Vegeta also has SSJ2.

If he was SSJ1, it makes sense.

Vegeta only says that in the dub. In the original he simply complains that he came to fight Goku and the other events are getting in his way of settling the score with Goku.

It's still possible Vegeta's SSJ1 was just that strong though.

It indirectly does tell us that Gohan was not SSJ2. Gohan is treating SSJ2 as being the reason why the damage meter went up quickly. If Gohan and Dabura were both SSJ2 level, it would make no sense for him to make this point when their own fight barely moved the meter.

Not really, as even in a powered up state the point is the total amount of energy given to Buu. If Goku were much stronger than Majin Vegeta then he wouldn't give much energy to Buu because he wouldn't be damaged much.

 

[Power Level Guy]

It's still possible Vegeta's SSJ1 was just that strong though.

If I can get people to accept Super Saiyan Vegeta > Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, I'd say my job is done. I don't really argue that issue if my fellow debater is willing to swallow that one. That is one extreme position to hold. Toriyama has given us plenty of evidence to suggest he's quite the minimalist when he can be.

 

[sei'taer]

The lack of lightning is and always will be the biggest confirmation that Gohan wasn't SSJ2.

 

[ahill1]

We know he can't be that weak compared to Goku. Goku was severely weakened by the time he filled up the Buu meter. This confirms Gohan is at least somewhat relative to Goku.

Well, he can't be that weak, but he was way weaker regardless. Vegeta stated Gohan was far, far better as a kid and Gohan was above kid Gohan. That could allow for a 1.5x gap or so between SSJ2 teen Gohan and SSJ2 Goku. If Goku is way stronger, then his damage will amount way bigger energy for Boo. Gohan also had all his power drawn out and contributed to roughly the same amount of energy that a damaged, but still strong enough to keep himself in SSJ2, Goku did... That also shows a big difference. Besides, the clash between Goku and Vegeta led to more damage in general... Gohan wasn't that damage by Dabura, Goku was breathing heavily, with his face bloodied, clothes ripped... It was a more intense altercation, whereas Dabura didn't deal the same damage to Gohan. Weirdly though as I'd argue Dabra should be slightly stronger than Gohan, but it seems the damage was just not that substantial.

I think it took the pointer from, like, maybe ~45% to ~55% ? I don't think it's farfetched to SSJ2 Gohan to have contributed to a 10% add when being barely damaged, or at least, not noticeably damaged, when his entire SSJ2 led to 45% or so.

CGs

Goku
SSJ : 75

Gohan
SSJ : 90
SSJ2 (rage boost) : 320

-- 4x multiplier (while normally, it's a 3x multiplier for everyone else, 3.2x more precisely because that's the number that worked fuck u lulz)

Boo saga

SSJ Gohan : 75
-- SSJ2 : 240
-- little damaged vs Dabra

SSJ Goku : 125
-- SSJ2 : 400

Energy to revive Boo : 530
Post Gohan : 240
--- Dabura's damage : 280
--- Goku's damage : 530

SSJ2 weakened Goku : 150

And honestly though, Gohan getting the pointer from ~ 45% to ~55% would still not fit that much... Since Gohan would be then too weak to compete vs Dabra. It'd be better going from 48% to 52%. Still, moving a 5% in that scale would be like a 27 power loss. If Gohan was a 240, then a 27 power loss would still suck... Maybe it should be even lower lol. But if he were SSJ, then a 27 would take him to like 60% of his full power.

Idk tho probably overthinking

 

[Dagon]

If I can get people to accept Super Saiyan Vegeta > Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, I'd say my job is done. I don't really argue that issue if my fellow debater is willing to swallow that one. That is one extreme position to hold. Toriyama has given us plenty of evidence to suggest he's quite the minimalist when he can be.

Well, Vegeta said he and Goku were stronger than Gohan, and they both saw and felt SSJ2 Gohan's power at the tournament, and Goku was surprised at seeing Vegeta become SSJ2. An additional point is in the anime, Android 18 said she never felt an energy like SSJ Majin Vegeta's(she must have learned how to sense ki after the Cell saga).

@ahill1 I had a thought that damage energy for the Buu meter might consume full reserves of ki if the person dies, like if Dabura managed to cleave Gohan in twain with the sword then the Buu meter would jump to 90%, or at least 70-ish percent.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Well, Vegeta said he and Goku were stronger than Gohan, and they both saw and felt SSJ2 Gohan's power at the tournament, and Goku was surprised at seeing Vegeta become SSJ2. An additional point is in the anime, Android 18 said she never felt an energy like SSJ Majin Vegeta's(she must have learned how to sense ki after the Cell saga).

So do you go by SSJ Vegeta > SSJ2 Gohan?

 

[Power Level Guy]

Yeah @ahill1 I've looked at that and used to use it as evidence that Gohan was a SSJ2. But yeah, the meter barely moves something like 47 to 51, if that.

 

[Dagon]

So do you go by SSJ Vegeta > SSJ2 Gohan?

It's a strong indicator, so I'd have to say so.

 

[Power Level Guy]

It's a strong indicator, so I'd have to say so.

Have you included this power chain into your power level list?

 

[Dagon]

Have you included this power chain into your power level list?

I haven't got that far, but I probably will.