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I'm talking about the storytelling. Was it neccessary? It seems like his SS3 form is useless, why can't just 
make Gotenks more stronger as SSJ only.
make Gotenks more stronger as SSJ only.
Does Gotenks need SS3 form?
- Thread starter Let's Go Fearless!
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Well, Super Saiyan 3 was considered the ultimate form in the Boo saga, so it makes sense why AT gave the form to Gotenks. He could've made him a stronger Super Saiyan, but I don't think that would've been interesting.
It was also a convenient way to power-up Gotenks and Super Boo later.
It was also a convenient way to power-up Gotenks and Super Boo later.
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Him remaining only a Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2 would've been too underwhelming at that point after all the hype the Fusion technique got. I think part of the reason he didn't even show off his Super Saiyan 2 form was because it'd been degraded to a run of the mill achievement since Goku and Vegeta achieved it, and the third form being his "beyond Super Saiyan form" just carried much more impact.
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It would have been nice to have just plain old Super Saiyan Gotenks. All he really needs to be is way stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku.
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Super Saiyan 3 was introduced too early in the Boo arc for there to not be additional users near the end imo, especially since it was greatly surpassed as soon as Boo transformed into his evil form. Everyone and their third cousin achieved Super Saiyan and at least one additional grade (2/3/4) by the Cell Game in the last arc as well.
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Super Saiyan 3 I feel should only be exclusive to Goku. It make him more unique in a sense and it doesn't feel right to give more than 1 character the ability to achieve the final Super Saiyan Form of the arc or else it would just leave everyone else in the shadows.
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Every arc left the side characters in the shadows though. The two boys were also stated by Goku himself to possess such great potential that he felt like leaving everything in their hands, and the culmination being a rapid advancement to SSJ3 wasn't really that bad, it's mainly people who don't like goku and vegeta being left far behind that had problems with it
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I understand your view point. But just because Goku has SSJ3 wouldn't make him near the strongest anyway, just unique. There was always that one guy that a achieves new form and no else was able to use it each arc, Freeza arc with Goku, Cell Saga with Gohan.
Yes, other Saiyans did achieve the transformation in the next arc. But the arc that starts the debut of the form always doesn't have anyone else in the same arc achieving the same form.
Yes, other Saiyans did achieve the transformation in the next arc. But the arc that starts the debut of the form always doesn't have anyone else in the same arc achieving the same form.
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I agree with this bald guy.Sokka said:
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I mostly feel Gotenks' ascension would've lacked impact if it was a form other Saiyans had achieved again and again before. Super Saiyan 3 wasn't achieved at the last minute like the other forms, and sort of came out of nowhere for plot purposes when Goku needed to stall Boo, so that didn't present much of a problem for me. Gotenks is a fused warrior as well, so Goku maintains some uniqueness anyway
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You have a point. Though Gotenks would have been better off as an overpowered fighter that was multifolds above everyone else besides Evil Boo in just Super Saiyan imo. Gotenks just turning SSJ3 out of the blue would just be completely random. I think Goku had the idea that the kids in their current state when fusing would already be extremely powerful, he never thought about them achieving a new form.
Besides, it makes sense in a logical standpoint. Super Saiyan 3 is a form that is obtained through years of intense training in Other World. Turning SSJ3 in just 2 weeks is freaking retarded, and the Kids turning SSJ for no reason was bad enough.
Besides, it makes sense in a logical standpoint. Super Saiyan 3 is a form that is obtained through years of intense training in Other World. Turning SSJ3 in just 2 weeks is freaking retarded, and the Kids turning SSJ for no reason was bad enough.
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Gotenks and his power, even as a Super Saiyan 3, has been contradicted by all movies, short movies and movies intended as direction continuations of the original Manga, there has not been one single film/episode since the Manga's serialization that agrees with fan speculation, which leads me to believe the general community is completely wrong.
Yes, I'm talking about you. Even recent Akira Toriyama has completely shat on their notions on what occurred in the Manga. Summarily, this thread has no purpose.
Goku stated 'They can definitely win if they perform fusion successfully' before sensing the boys to 'They can win if they perfect fusion'. He was also drawn as being unimpressed.
Don't twist things.
He further has several statements that suggest he wasn't completely certain if they could win on power alone, even if they were Super Saiyans. Such as 'winning some how or another', which shits upon your opinion.
It's logical that your opinion is wrong because it is contradicted by everything that was released since. Don't act like your the end all to Dragonball Gotenks debates, your not. Don't shit upon people because you believe your opinion to be fact, it's not.
I can keep on debating you about any point you make, because I've been down this road 100 times. Yes I know about Pyrus and his Gotenks arguments and about Metal4Ever and his Neoseeker arguments, which is why I intentionally created this thread:
http://dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?t=3629
As a counter to them.
And if you really feel like pushing me, I'll post some shit:
The boys were never shown to power up to their full power during their bout' at the World Martial Arts Tournament. Additionally, standing Chi -or momentarily becoming a Super Saiyan, is much different than powering up to ones full ability. Hence why Goku asks them to force themselves to reach the pinnacle of their strength.
So, now we've established that Goku introduces fusion, asks to see their full battle power and later laments on how he expects them to solve things 'somehow or another'. This doesn't sound like Goku is entirely certain that their battle power as Gotenks will definitely be greater than Boo's.
They failed the fusion twice before being able to transform into the product by nothing more than sheer chance. It was definitely not an example of mastery, and definitely not comparable to how 'controlled' and 'perfected' the technique became after their entrance into the RoSaT.
Gotenks is still a work in progress at this point.
Gotenks' is over-estimating himself here and has now proven to be an unreliable character in terms of power statements.
This is blatant evidence that 'X' can refer to 'Xs' battle power as 'Absolutely amazing', yet remain doubtful of what they can do, but still give them the benefit of the doubt based upon how they feel about themselves.
The fight with Majin Boo is within 1 day and Piccolo continues to insist that the boys need to continue to train for it. In other-words, it means that they still aren't up to par with defeating Majin Boo, even as Super Saiyans, which is Piccolo's entire plan here. Piccolo has been around Super Saiyans for his entire life, even longer than either Goten or Trunks have been alive, so if he's insisting that they need to continue to train to power themselves up, it also means that the product of the sum isn't up to par either.
It would be illogical for them to train 'as much as they can' if they could simply perform fusion as Super Saiyans and go defeated Boo in the alloted time.
Additionally, if you truly believe Goku can gauge the powers of the Metamoran people and the sum of the product, and than accurately determine exactly how powerful Gotenks' would be -with a technique he's never tried out before, prior to even seeing the full Chi of Goten & Trunks, than you are forced to believe that Piccolo can accurately determine how strong Gotenks 'should' become by turning Super Saiyan. Yet it creates a logical fallacy when he asks them to train as much as the can for the fight.
Long story short, Gotenks' is still a work in progress.
It covers the ground basics that Chi, strength & speed do not all correlate the same with every character, species or transformation. There are a-lot of conflicting scenarios that occur through-out Dragonball Z.
In this particular scenario, Piccolo confirms that Gotenks' has become powerful and wants to begin testing him out to see where he stands. To see what he's working with. However, that is not the same as saying his high Chi means he's more powerful than Majin Boo. Toriyama has previously stated in an interview that in order to become powerful, Chi control is very important. Just because Piccolo calls his Chi huge doesn't mean Gotenks has full control over it. And because strength doesn't correlate with speed, Piccolo is trying to grasp what kind of control he has over his Chi.
(Example: Goku 90,000 versus Ginyu 120,000. Ginyu was 33% stronger than Goku and proved so when he got him into an arm-bar, but his speed fell desperately short).
Gotenks' believes he's strong enough to defeat Boo just based off how fast he is. That also means he's completely unreliable, that also means this particular statement discredits itself by the merits of the character who stated it. As my point above proved, just because Gotenks is quick does not necessarily mean he's powerful.
Additionally, Piccolo refers to Boo's Chi was a difference in how it feels, not that it necessarily raised exponentially by as much as 100-fold. He than puts more emphasis on on Boo's new body and how he's completely evil.
a) Gotenks & the boys can no longer train.
b) Everybody's lives are now at risk, including the last hope Earth truly has.
c) Piccolo has to figure something out now, not in 1 day, now.
d) The Dragonballs are now at risk.[/spoiler]
Counter Arguments to Common Misconceptions
Yes, I'm talking about you. Even recent Akira Toriyama has completely shat on their notions on what occurred in the Manga. Summarily, this thread has no purpose.
This all has no merit. All it is is 'what I prefer/what I think is better', ect.
The same can be said about this response. It's only how personal opinion on what he thinks makes people unique, ect. It has no bearing on the actual Manga.
I fixed your logical response for you.
Incorrect.
Goku stated 'They can definitely win if they perform fusion successfully' before sensing the boys to 'They can win if they perfect fusion'. He was also drawn as being unimpressed.
Don't twist things.
He further has several statements that suggest he wasn't completely certain if they could win on power alone, even if they were Super Saiyans. Such as 'winning some how or another', which shits upon your opinion.
It's logical that your opinion is wrong because it is contradicted by everything that was released since. Don't act like your the end all to Dragonball Gotenks debates, your not. Don't shit upon people because you believe your opinion to be fact, it's not.
I can keep on debating you about any point you make, because I've been down this road 100 times. Yes I know about Pyrus and his Gotenks arguments and about Metal4Ever and his Neoseeker arguments, which is why I intentionally created this thread:
http://dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?t=3629
As a counter to them.
And if you really feel like pushing me, I'll post some shit:
The boys were never shown to power up to their full power during their bout' at the World Martial Arts Tournament. Additionally, standing Chi -or momentarily becoming a Super Saiyan, is much different than powering up to ones full ability. Hence why Goku asks them to force themselves to reach the pinnacle of their strength.
The highlighted part makes it fairly obvious that Goku is planning on them achieving victory somehow or another. If Goku actually felt that the product of the fusion would undeniably be power enough to defeat Boo, there would be no reason for him to speak in uncertain terms about how they will defeat Boo. However, upon seeing their latent battle power and fighting ability, he feels compelled to believe that they can find some way to win if they can learn to fuse in the alloted time. However, this isn't the same as saying they will definitely surpass Majin Boo in battle power.
So, now we've established that Goku introduces fusion, asks to see their full battle power and later laments on how he expects them to solve things 'somehow or another'. This doesn't sound like Goku is entirely certain that their battle power as Gotenks will definitely be greater than Boo's.
Chi-Chi is busy lamenting about the safety of her child, but Goku assures her everything will be fine. However, Goku's prediction is only relevant if the fusion is perfected. Now we have ascertained that Goku originally said they can win of they perform fusion 'successfully', but that is made prior to seeing their full capabilities and being able to accurately gauge the sum of the product, now he's changed his opinion to them 'perfecting' the fusion as opposed to simply 'performing it successfully'.
They failed the fusion twice before being able to transform into the product by nothing more than sheer chance. It was definitely not an example of mastery, and definitely not comparable to how 'controlled' and 'perfected' the technique became after their entrance into the RoSaT.
Gotenks' comes into existence for the 'first time'. The Metamoran technique is not mastered and won't be until they hit the RoSaT. Gotenks' is currently unable to willingly turn Super Saiyan after fusing. Why? Because when the Fat Majin Boo was busy beating his ass he couldn't do anything about it. Gotenks' is still limited to his Base transformation after fusing and can only access Super Saiyan by performing it before fusing. Conclusively, that goes against Goku's statement of Gotenks' perfecting the technique and of Gotenks not losing the bout' against Fat Boo.
Gotenks is still a work in progress at this point.
This statement solidifies the fact that the technique wasn't mastered yet. Piccolo wants them to try as Super Saiyans but Gotenks' refuses. If he could simply turn 'Super Saiyan' at will, he could simply do so now, or during the time Boo had him on the ropes, but he can't.
Gotenks' is over-estimating himself here and has now proven to be an unreliable character in terms of power statements.
In this statement, Krillen uses the word 'haughty' to describe Gotenks. Haughty means to be overly proud of ones capabilities. However, he is giving him the benefit of the doubt because of his confidence in his abilities. Yamcha agrees with this notion.
This is blatant evidence that 'X' can refer to 'Xs' battle power as 'Absolutely amazing', yet remain doubtful of what they can do, but still give them the benefit of the doubt based upon how they feel about themselves.
Gotenks' was clearly unable to turn Super Saiyan to combat Boo and ended up getting his butt kicked.
The fight with Majin Boo is within 1 day and Piccolo continues to insist that the boys need to continue to train for it. In other-words, it means that they still aren't up to par with defeating Majin Boo, even as Super Saiyans, which is Piccolo's entire plan here. Piccolo has been around Super Saiyans for his entire life, even longer than either Goten or Trunks have been alive, so if he's insisting that they need to continue to train to power themselves up, it also means that the product of the sum isn't up to par either.
It would be illogical for them to train 'as much as they can' if they could simply perform fusion as Super Saiyans and go defeated Boo in the alloted time.
Additionally, if you truly believe Goku can gauge the powers of the Metamoran people and the sum of the product, and than accurately determine exactly how powerful Gotenks' would be -with a technique he's never tried out before, prior to even seeing the full Chi of Goten & Trunks, than you are forced to believe that Piccolo can accurately determine how strong Gotenks 'should' become by turning Super Saiyan. Yet it creates a logical fallacy when he asks them to train as much as the can for the fight.
Long story short, Gotenks' is still a work in progress.
Here is a link to my other thread: http://dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3609
It covers the ground basics that Chi, strength & speed do not all correlate the same with every character, species or transformation. There are a-lot of conflicting scenarios that occur through-out Dragonball Z.
In this particular scenario, Piccolo confirms that Gotenks' has become powerful and wants to begin testing him out to see where he stands. To see what he's working with. However, that is not the same as saying his high Chi means he's more powerful than Majin Boo. Toriyama has previously stated in an interview that in order to become powerful, Chi control is very important. Just because Piccolo calls his Chi huge doesn't mean Gotenks has full control over it. And because strength doesn't correlate with speed, Piccolo is trying to grasp what kind of control he has over his Chi.
Gotenks' is making the bold mistake of believing that his strength has raised as much as his speed and that the two scale linearly. They don't. There is a connecting point between the two, but one can be as much as 33% lower than the other.
(Example: Goku 90,000 versus Ginyu 120,000. Ginyu was 33% stronger than Goku and proved so when he got him into an arm-bar, but his speed fell desperately short).
Gotenks' believes he's strong enough to defeat Boo just based off how fast he is. That also means he's completely unreliable, that also means this particular statement discredits itself by the merits of the character who stated it. As my point above proved, just because Gotenks is quick does not necessarily mean he's powerful.
Here we see that Majin Boo's evil portion begins to take over and it causes the split into Good Boo & Grey Boo.
This means that instead of the Good Boo being in charged of the power, the Evil one took over and that Evil Boo now had more access to a greater pool of energy.
Majin Boo's Chi immediately changes in how it feels. The same thing is said about Goku's Chi when he was at Super Saiyan 3, and now both fighters have been sensed from the World Of The Kais, so presumably, Majin Boo's battle power has now reached the heights of Super Saiyan 3.
Additionally, Piccolo refers to Boo's Chi was a difference in how it feels, not that it necessarily raised exponentially by as much as 100-fold. He than puts more emphasis on on Boo's new body and how he's completely evil.
Now that Majin Boo has upgraded even further, he can now detect the Chi of others. This is the paramount turning point for Gotenks because:
a) Gotenks & the boys can no longer train.
b) Everybody's lives are now at risk, including the last hope Earth truly has.
c) Piccolo has to figure something out now, not in 1 day, now.
d) The Dragonballs are now at risk.[/spoiler]
Counter Arguments to Common Misconceptions
Argument
a) Gotenks Base Pre-RoSaT survived Majin Boo, Vegeta didn't; therefore he has to be around Super Saiyan 2 power.
Counter-Argument
There are countless scenarios where a weaker fighter survives a stronger fighter, but it doesn't mean they are stronger than anybody else. Some examples include Hercule fighting Perfect Cell & Kid Boo. Vegeta in his Ssj2 & Base form being mercilessly assaulted by Kid Boo -who is not known to hold back power. Kaioshin surviving Boo. Surviving a fight doesn't account for anything.
Argument
b) Gotenks says Gotenks' will defeat Majin Boo and it isn't contradicted.
Counter-Argument
Goku made the statement prior to being able to accurately gauge the strength of the boys. Therefore it's not an accurate power statement and is contradicted when he isn't even certain if what they're showing them is their full power.
Argument
c) Goku didn't think they needed the RoSaT
Counter-Argument
Actually, within the context of the statement Goku only says 'no' to using it for the sole purpose of speeding up the time it will take to learn the fusion. He later says 'they might need it later'. This also contradicts the notion that Gotenks' strength wasn't contradicted and debunks the notion that he didn't intend for them to use the RoSaT.
Argument
d) Goku isn't an idiot, he wouldn't risk the entire Universe unless he was certain the boys could win.
Counter-Argument
Gotenks was remarked as being able to win 'one way or another', this doesn't have to include battle power as Goku has seen the fusion before and knows it likely yields some weird powers.
Additionally, Piccolo says the same thing to Gotenks about both Boo's: that he needs to 'train and train' in preparation for both fights. The statement isn't contradicted in either situation, therefore it's true until contradicted.
Also, Goku figured they would learn to fuse quickly, which would give them the remainder of the time to focus on training, and if need be, they could use the RoSaT. So no, Goku isn't an idiot, but it doesn't mean Gotenks Ssj Pre-RoSaT would be strong enough to defeat Majin Boo without the benefits of training, because Goku wasn't certain if he would be or not.
Argument
e) Piccolo only question Gotenks' speed, not his power.
Counter-Argument
My analysis in another topic proves that speed doesn't correlate with strength in linear progression. Hence why Piccolo was testing him. Gotenks was foolish enough to believe so, but this is completely false. Ginyu was 33% stronger than Goku on Namek, but he was much slower. Because speed & strength can differ so greatly from one another, it makes it impossible to judge a characters power based solely on speed alone.
Argument
f) Goku says Gotenks will be stronger than him and it isn't contradicted.
Counter-Argument
Note: Goku actually never told Boo this (apparently he's gone senile in the afterlife).
Argument:
g) Goku is stupid and a serial killer because he let 10% of the Earth die.
Counter-Argument:
Piccolo was willing to let Super Boo annihilate the entire population (7 Billion people, or the remaining 90%) for the sole purpose of giving Gotenks a chance to close the gap.
Goku knows they still have the Dragon Balls and previously told Gohan during the Cell Games not to worry about whatever damage he does because it can all be reversed with the Dragon Balls.
After Kid Boo appeared, Goku was teleported to the World Of The Kais and he says:
Goku: “It’s alright. I’m tellin’ ya, don’t worry. He can’t come all the way here. We’ll think up some sorta strategy. I feel bad for the aliens who will be sacrificed in the meantime, but we’ll use the dragonballs later…”
Goku is willing to make the sacrifice to give Gotenks a chance to succeed, because all the damage can later be undone.
Argument:
Goku didn't intend for them to use the RoSaT.
Counter-Argument:
Actually, if you look at the context of the statement:
So finally, Goku isn't 100% certain if Gotenks, even as a Super Saiyan, would become strong enough. The RoSaT was a back-up plan just in case he wasn't. This also debunks pretty much all the Gotenks Pre-RoSaT arguments.
Argument
a) Fusion doesn't scale linearly.
Counter-Argument
This particular argument uses the quote from Piccolo that says 'even if you get just a little stronger, it will be more effective when you perform fusion'. All this means is 'Goten + 1 / Trunks + 1 = Gotenks +n 2'.
Therefore 'Gotenks Base Post > Gotenks Ssj Pre' is hereby disproven. Additionally, Piccolo started to build hope based off how perfectly the boys performed the fusion dance and built his expectations off of a 'not fully powered' Gotenks.
Fusion does scale linearly. There is no evidence to suggest it doesn't. This argument is a desperate cop-out to make the 'Base Post > Ssj Pre' theory work. It's both a numeric impossibility and a logical fallacy due to having no evidence to substantiate the claim.
P.S.
For the people who actually believe that fusion doesn't scale linearly, than you are creating a paradox and a big hole in your logic by believing Goku can sense the Metamoran individuals and their fused product and determine what Gotenks Ssj Pre will be.
Your logic collapses in on itself.
Argument:
Piccolo didn't doubt Gotenks' when he said he could finish Boo.
Counter-Argument:
Piccolo didn't have the time to contradict Gotenks' whom flew off almost immediately. Piccolo resorts to trying to stop him because of the amount of time they have left and they would ultimately defuse and then Earth's only hope would be killed off. However, don't make the mistake of thinking that's the same as Piccolo not doubting their strength. He never had the time to vocalize his doubts and even with what he was able to say to himself, the safety of the individuals was clearly more paramount.
Argument: Piccolo let them sleep after seeing Gotenks Super Saiyan, this means he thinks the fusion is strong enough.
Counter-Argument: Piccolo let the boys sleep prior to even merging successfully for the first time, and they only had 1 day left to learn the fusion. This argument is bullshit.
Argument: How can Gotenks be weaker than Boo as a Super Saiyan?
Counter-Argument: After Kibito & Kaioshin merged with the Potara, their strength wasn't even considered on par with Vegeta Ssj2; yet Kaioshin alone was considered a dimension above Piccolo, and because the Potara has greater affect than the Metamoran fusion, this makes it a mathematical impossibility for Gotenks Ssj Pre-RoSaT to actually surpass Fat Boo.
a) Gotenks Base Pre-RoSaT survived Majin Boo, Vegeta didn't; therefore he has to be around Super Saiyan 2 power.
Counter-Argument
There are countless scenarios where a weaker fighter survives a stronger fighter, but it doesn't mean they are stronger than anybody else. Some examples include Hercule fighting Perfect Cell & Kid Boo. Vegeta in his Ssj2 & Base form being mercilessly assaulted by Kid Boo -who is not known to hold back power. Kaioshin surviving Boo. Surviving a fight doesn't account for anything.
Argument
b) Gotenks says Gotenks' will defeat Majin Boo and it isn't contradicted.
Counter-Argument
Goku made the statement prior to being able to accurately gauge the strength of the boys. Therefore it's not an accurate power statement and is contradicted when he isn't even certain if what they're showing them is their full power.
Argument
c) Goku didn't think they needed the RoSaT
Counter-Argument
Actually, within the context of the statement Goku only says 'no' to using it for the sole purpose of speeding up the time it will take to learn the fusion. He later says 'they might need it later'. This also contradicts the notion that Gotenks' strength wasn't contradicted and debunks the notion that he didn't intend for them to use the RoSaT.
Argument
d) Goku isn't an idiot, he wouldn't risk the entire Universe unless he was certain the boys could win.
Counter-Argument
Gotenks was remarked as being able to win 'one way or another', this doesn't have to include battle power as Goku has seen the fusion before and knows it likely yields some weird powers.
Additionally, Piccolo says the same thing to Gotenks about both Boo's: that he needs to 'train and train' in preparation for both fights. The statement isn't contradicted in either situation, therefore it's true until contradicted.
Also, Goku figured they would learn to fuse quickly, which would give them the remainder of the time to focus on training, and if need be, they could use the RoSaT. So no, Goku isn't an idiot, but it doesn't mean Gotenks Ssj Pre-RoSaT would be strong enough to defeat Majin Boo without the benefits of training, because Goku wasn't certain if he would be or not.
Argument
e) Piccolo only question Gotenks' speed, not his power.
Counter-Argument
My analysis in another topic proves that speed doesn't correlate with strength in linear progression. Hence why Piccolo was testing him. Gotenks was foolish enough to believe so, but this is completely false. Ginyu was 33% stronger than Goku on Namek, but he was much slower. Because speed & strength can differ so greatly from one another, it makes it impossible to judge a characters power based solely on speed alone.
Argument
f) Goku says Gotenks will be stronger than him and it isn't contradicted.
Counter-Argument
The entire point of telling Majin Boo that was buy time for the boys to learn the fusion. It wasn't meant to be taken as an actual fact. Then there is this:
Note: Goku actually never told Boo this (apparently he's gone senile in the afterlife).
Argument:
g) Goku is stupid and a serial killer because he let 10% of the Earth die.
Counter-Argument:
Piccolo was willing to let Super Boo annihilate the entire population (7 Billion people, or the remaining 90%) for the sole purpose of giving Gotenks a chance to close the gap.
Goku knows they still have the Dragon Balls and previously told Gohan during the Cell Games not to worry about whatever damage he does because it can all be reversed with the Dragon Balls.
After Kid Boo appeared, Goku was teleported to the World Of The Kais and he says:
Goku: “It’s alright. I’m tellin’ ya, don’t worry. He can’t come all the way here. We’ll think up some sorta strategy. I feel bad for the aliens who will be sacrificed in the meantime, but we’ll use the dragonballs later…”
Goku is willing to make the sacrifice to give Gotenks a chance to succeed, because all the damage can later be undone.
Argument:
Goku didn't intend for them to use the RoSaT.
Counter-Argument:
Actually, if you look at the context of the statement:
Goku wasn't saying that the boys didn't need the RoSaT because the fusion on it's own would be strong enough to defeat Boo, he was neglecting in using it as a means for the boys to learn the Metamoran quicker, which would waste time. He than blatantly says 'They might NEED IT LATER' because they are going to learn to fuse quickly.
So finally, Goku isn't 100% certain if Gotenks, even as a Super Saiyan, would become strong enough. The RoSaT was a back-up plan just in case he wasn't. This also debunks pretty much all the Gotenks Pre-RoSaT arguments.
Argument
a) Fusion doesn't scale linearly.
Counter-Argument
This particular argument uses the quote from Piccolo that says 'even if you get just a little stronger, it will be more effective when you perform fusion'. All this means is 'Goten + 1 / Trunks + 1 = Gotenks +n 2'.
Therefore 'Gotenks Base Post > Gotenks Ssj Pre' is hereby disproven. Additionally, Piccolo started to build hope based off how perfectly the boys performed the fusion dance and built his expectations off of a 'not fully powered' Gotenks.
Fusion does scale linearly. There is no evidence to suggest it doesn't. This argument is a desperate cop-out to make the 'Base Post > Ssj Pre' theory work. It's both a numeric impossibility and a logical fallacy due to having no evidence to substantiate the claim.
P.S.
For the people who actually believe that fusion doesn't scale linearly, than you are creating a paradox and a big hole in your logic by believing Goku can sense the Metamoran individuals and their fused product and determine what Gotenks Ssj Pre will be.
Your logic collapses in on itself.
Argument:
Piccolo didn't doubt Gotenks' when he said he could finish Boo.
Counter-Argument:
Piccolo didn't have the time to contradict Gotenks' whom flew off almost immediately. Piccolo resorts to trying to stop him because of the amount of time they have left and they would ultimately defuse and then Earth's only hope would be killed off. However, don't make the mistake of thinking that's the same as Piccolo not doubting their strength. He never had the time to vocalize his doubts and even with what he was able to say to himself, the safety of the individuals was clearly more paramount.
Argument: Piccolo let them sleep after seeing Gotenks Super Saiyan, this means he thinks the fusion is strong enough.
Counter-Argument: Piccolo let the boys sleep prior to even merging successfully for the first time, and they only had 1 day left to learn the fusion. This argument is bullshit.
Argument: How can Gotenks be weaker than Boo as a Super Saiyan?
Counter-Argument: After Kibito & Kaioshin merged with the Potara, their strength wasn't even considered on par with Vegeta Ssj2; yet Kaioshin alone was considered a dimension above Piccolo, and because the Potara has greater affect than the Metamoran fusion, this makes it a mathematical impossibility for Gotenks Ssj Pre-RoSaT to actually surpass Fat Boo.
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Dammit! No GokuVSGotenks here!
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We're talking about why does Toriyama need Gotenks achieve as SS3 when he could just let Gotenks get stronger by training as SSj. Therefore, his power is irrelevant whether it's against Goku or Fat Boo.
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The basis of your point is 'Gotenks is better then Goku'.Fearless Saiyajin said:
Don't play the card that that isn't your point, it is.
This is a Gotenks > Goku thread in disguise.
Meh, if you guys wanna act like such good debaters, let's see what you got. WITHOUT EVIL VEGETA.
I wanna see what Papasmurf & Fearless Saiyan can do on their own.
If I'm such a shit debater, it shouldn't be an issue.
I doubt these scrubs can beat me, even with a 2 on 1.
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I think that, just like SSJ and SSJ2 were introduced at the end of Freeza and Cell sagas respectively, SSJ3 should have been first achieved by
Goku during his fight with Kid Buu, making him stronger than anything else up to that point.
Goku during his fight with Kid Buu, making him stronger than anything else up to that point.
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Shut up Tosh. Did I ever state my opinion was fact? No. It was my personal opinion and I'm not shoving it up anyone's ass.
Besides, we aren't debating about whether Gotenks is stronger than Goku dumbass.
Besides, we aren't debating about whether Gotenks is stronger than Goku dumbass.
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Back to the subject.
If Gotenks stayed as SSj then i guess we wouldn't get this gag moments at all.
If Gotenks stayed as SSj then i guess we wouldn't get this gag moments at all.
