Drum

[p123]

Goku had the advantage over Tien, wasn't being super specific, they are close enough.

 

[SSJ2]

I agree then.

 

[ahill1]

Interesting. I kind of lean on there being no zenkai here. It's tough though. I've always gone back and forth.

If you don't give him a zenkai, it makes Piccolo's power feel less majestic. People also like to take that quote about he didn't think people could be this strong in this age to mean Goku > Mutaito, but I call bull on that. He's talking about the time period imo.

It's hard not to give him a zenkai when we see Goku ( Vs General Blue ) > Goku ( vs Jackie Chun ), especially after he was very damaged after Muscle Tower...

But what you gave him, seemed pretty appropriate.

But it's tough, I don't think the author is implying that Goku post sensu 23rd Budokai and Piccolo post sensu would mean Goku would win, do you? It's tough.

It's going to be hard to say Goku would have easily handled him in that situation you know? Also, what then, Piccolo trains harder over the 5 years to catch up? I don't like the narrative that goes along with that. Decisions, decisions.

I generally just give Goku a Zenkai when it's implied. Young Roshi/Tsuru and Mutaito were all implied to be above 22nd Budokai Goku by Roshi's line:

Chapter: 135, P.6.1
Context: speaking of Piccolo Daimao
Kame-Sen'nin: Even younger, I was no match for him. Nor was Tsuru-Sen'nin. Nor even our master, Mutaito"

Kame-Sen'nin was trying to say how hopeless was the situation and used himself in the young days and Tsuru-Sen'nin to describe how terrifying was Piccolo Daimao. After Roshi's line, Yamcha even said "Goku is going to fight it?", to which I think is safe to put both young Roshi and young Tsuru (as well as Mutaito, of course) as his superior.

Yet, after defeating Goku, Piccolo Daimao stated Goku is the farthest a human could go:

Chapter: 144, P7.1
Context: after seeming to kill Goku
Piccolo: “Naturally, this level is about as far as a human could go.”

I don't think you can refute the "Goku > Mutaito" implication regarding that line by saying "Piccolo was referring to this world", considering the "as far as a human could go" is a pretty generic statement and isn't referring just to the humans of the current world. So, the chain of Goku (post Tambourine) > Mutaito > young Roshi > 22nd Goku is pretty much implied imo.

 

[p123]

Key words " Is about"...

I don't think you can have this make sense...

Goku ( Post Tambourine ) > Mutaito > Tsuru/Roshi > Goku 22nd

I don't know if I agree with that. Goku being the strongest human in history at that point? How big do you want to give him a zenkai? It's plausible for sure, but I don't know. I gotta thiink about it.

 

[ahill1]

Key words " Is about"...

I don't think you can have this make sense...

Goku ( Post Tambourine ) > Mutaito > Tsuru/Roshi > Goku 22nd

I don't know if I agree with that. Goku being the strongest human in history at that point? How big do you want to give him a zenkai? It's plausible for sure, but I don't know. I gotta thiink about it.

I don't think the Zenkai has to be that high. Something like Vegeta's post Earth Zenkai works here imo.

Goku (22nd Budokai) 100
Young Roshi/Tsuru 110
Mutaito 120
Goku (post Tamb) 132

 

[p123]

So Roshi is going to be able to discern a 10% difference in power between his and Goku's power spanning hundreds of years? C'mon son.

 

[p123]

So Roshi is going to be able to discern a 10% difference in power between he and Goku's power spanning hundreds of years? C'mon son.

 

[ahill1]

So Roshi is going to be able to discern a 10% difference in power between his and Goku's power spanning hundreds of years? C'mon son.

Well if you want to make young Roshi >>> 22nd Goku, then fine, but that will make Goku's Zenkai even bigger.

Roshi also knew he was stronger when young that he was in the 22nd Budokai, so isn't a stretch to think he had a high amoount of precision on his young self strength.

Vegeta was also able to note Goku's small superiority over kid Gohan in the course of seven years, so I wouldn't say it's impossible.

 

[p123]

1.1x difference instantly recognized after the course of hundreds of years? Try again.

 

[Super Neko Majin Z]

I don't think the Zenkai has to be that high. Something like Vegeta's post Earth Zenkai works here imo.

So Goku can kill his 22nd Budokai self with one punch and a finger point? Even 40% Piccolo couldn't have done that. You're acting like Vegeta's Zenkai is a small boost, but it's enough to effortlessly stomp his old self.

 

[p123]

Agreed, Vegeta's zenkai from Earth is actually rather large.

 

[ahill1]

1.1x difference instantly recognized after the course of hundreds of years? Try again.

'Kay

Goku 22nd Budokai 100
Young Roshi 130
Mutaito 150
Son Goku (post Budokai) 165

Better?

So Goku can kill his 22nd Budokai self with one punch and a finger point?

Nah, more like what Goku Kaioken x3 was doing to Vegeta.

You're acting like Vegeta's Zenkai is a small boost, but it's enough to effortlessly stomp his old self.

Yeah, by "that big of a Zenkai" I meant more something like Goku's post Ginyu Zenkai or Vegeta's post Kuririn Zenkai, which was a many fold stuff.

 

[p123]

Those are two different things.

Vegeta vs Cui is more than 18k to 24k, Vegeta should be 27k, AT messed up the logic. This is more accurate...

Cui 18,000
Dodoria 22,000
Zarbon 24,000
Vegeta 27,000

You're welcome.

 

[ahill1]

I agree that your numbers are better as far as space goes, but we shouldn't doubt Vegeta was 24k in the manga. That was given and it's something craved in stone as far as I'm concerned.

 

[p123]

It's incorrect. Just like how Tien is 250 and Goku is 334 or whatever. No way did Tien close that gap that quickly in 5 years. Just not logical.

Also, Roshi being 139 is laughable, he was respectable at the 22nd, but he was pure garbage compared to them at the 23rd, let alone BOZ. AT's numbers are factually incorrect at times unfortunately for the author.

 

[ahill1]

I agree with the BoZ numbers, but you are also going against Vegeta's 24k power level, which isn't something asked to. Lemme ask you a question:

If someone asked who is more powerful, Vegeta post Earth Zenkai or Kaioken x3 Saiyan Saga Goku, what would be your answer? That Vegeta is stronger since AT's 24k number is wrong and it SHOULD be 27k? That seems pretty illogical... even if it were better at 27k, it doesn't change the fact that 24k is the number AT put there and it's what he was thinking at that time.

 

[p123]

Yea, I don't agree with his thinking. He didn't think it through...

Vegeta killed Cui in such easy fashion, whereas Kkx3 Goku whooped Vegeta's ass, but nowhere on that level. So, by his own admission, he does not agree with the numbers, he probably forgot about KKx3 Goku being 24k anyhow.

The intents of the author are not superseded by the logic the author has set up. The story goes directly against majority of his power levels, the best option is to try to take what we can with his suggested format and make it work for the actual story that is presented.