EoZ SSJ Goten vs Perfect Cell (increased speed)

[SSJ2]

Cell who fought Gohan after increasing his speed. Who wins?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Goku making it apparent Goten wouldn't need to worry as he did about facing Boo if he hadn't slacked off makes it apparent Goten ought to be far stronger than his Boo Arc self. I'd honestly say anything short of SPC ought to be easy pickings for him here.

 

[SSJ2]

I'm not so sure, from what Trunks said, it sounds as though he had only begun training recently before the Budokai. I can't see training much after the end of the Boo arc..

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Considering the large time gap between the Boo Arc and the manga's conclusion, I'd say there's enough room for the two to have trained significantly before dropping it for a significant amount of time too. It also wouldn't fit with their personalities to drop it immediately and at least persist with it until they were teenagers when considering how determined they were to fight against the adults as well as have their own play fights together, not to mention how their failures with Boo would act as motivation.

 

[GSM123]

Goku’s full statement blames Goten for constantly slacking off, so he really isn’t like Gohan who hasn’t done a single jog in years.

Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P1.3
Goten: “Th-that can’t be! How can I go up against Boo right in the first round?!”
Goku: “It’s only a problem because you keep slacking off in your training.”

I say Goten could tear SPC a new one, let alone Speed Cell.

 

[SSJ2]

If he could decimate Super Perfect Cell I highly doubt he'd be so afraid of fighting Good Boo, who wasn't drastically above the SSJ2s to begin with.

 

[GSM123]

Gohan's full power easily erased Cell, and while Vegeta may not be above him the difference between his and Majin Boo's perfomances are pretty drastic, if you ask me. Even more so when you take into account Mr Boo should be stronger than he was against Pure Evil Boo since he's got the Kaioshin power all to himself now.

 

[Big Ank]

The Daizenshuu states that Goten "hasn't changed" that much due to slacking off, implying he got stronger but not by much. In the Boo saga he was slightly weaker than Gohan in equal forms, the latter of whom I have at [cell games] Goku's level... upping Goten by a tier would make him equals with the aforementioned Goku, in which case Cell would prove himself too fast for Goten to properly deal with. I could maybe up him one more tier and have him equal with kid Gohan from the Cell Games (in which case he'd still lose due to skills and a variety of move set) but I wouldn't go any higher than that to respect the Daizenshuu's statement, which frankly doesn't contradict anyting and goes in line with how absent he was with training in those years.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Can you cite the Daizenshuu entry [mention]ahill1[/mention]? I see it get mentioned a lot when it comes to EoZ Goten/Trunks, though I can't seem to find it myself.

Whilst it's indeed evidence without contradiction, we must also take into account what the Daizenshuu says about Cell and Gohan. Daizenshuu 2 cites that Gohan's power hasn't changed since the Cell Games, citing the reason his SS2 form in specific was stated as weaker being due to his inability to tap into his rage boost.

"Many years after the battle with Cell, Gohan had become a high school student. Due to either Chi Chi's influence or him neglecting to train, his strength hadn't changed since he was a boy."

"During the Tenkaichi Budoukai he transforms at Kibito's request. Because he couldn't gain power from anger and because he hadn't been training, he doesn't have the same battle power as when he defeated Cell."

This is actually surprisingly consistent to what the manga shows, considering Vegeta's only referrals to Gohan being weaker were when he was using SS2 (and, even if not agreeing with the Daizenshuu statement of him being one against Dabura, Vegeta did seem to put emphasis on the rustiness of his skills specifically). Therefore, if we take what the Daizenshuu has to say about Goten, Gohan and Cell, we'd end up with a chain of SSJ Gohan (Cell Games) = SSJ Gohan (Boo Arc) ~ "Full Speed" Perfect Cell > SSJ Goten, with Goten having not changed much still possibly being enough to give him an edge in power

 

[SSJ2]

Spoiler

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Interesting. I concede Goten/Trunks aren't as strong as I initially pegged them, though the phrasing of "explosive growth" is a fairly vague term, particularly when the other such examples of training gains over several years from that point in the series are ones far wider than the gap between Boo Arc SSJ Goten and Full Speed Cell; particularly when taking into account the acquiring of new forms as "explosive growth" or the Daizenshuu's stance on this particular matchup concerning D2's entries on Boo Arc Gohan.

 

[GSM123]

On the other hand the Daizenshuu attributes the lack of power ups to not training since boyhood, so one can argue the boys kept growing stronger and peaked within a couple years after the Boo Arc or so.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

That is true. However, I'd still say it's more solid to suggest the intent of the statement was a comparison to their Boo Arc selves when what gains they may have made afterwards in boyhood would be a complete assumption.

 

[Pyro]

Explosive usually infers a drastic change, so the Daizenshuu excerpt implies Goten and Trunks as teenagers aren't that different power-wise from when they were kids. Kind of odd considering how motivated they were to train and fight as kids and still had at least 2-3 years left to do that before puberty hit.

 

[Big Ank]

Can you cite the Daizenshuu entry @ahill1? I see it get mentioned a lot when it comes to EoZ Goten/Trunks, though I can't seem to find it myself.

Whilst it's indeed evidence without contradiction, we must also take into account what the Daizenshuu says about Cell and Gohan. Daizenshuu 2 cites that Gohan's power hasn't changed since the Cell Games, citing the reason his SS2 form in specific was stated as weaker being due to his inability to tap into his rage boost.

"Many years after the battle with Cell, Gohan had become a high school student. Due to either Chi Chi's influence or him neglecting to train, his strength hadn't changed since he was a boy."

"During the Tenkaichi Budoukai he transforms at Kibito's request. Because he couldn't gain power from anger and because he hadn't been training, he doesn't have the same battle power as when he defeated Cell."

This is actually surprisingly consistent to what the manga shows, considering Vegeta's only referrals to Gohan being weaker were when he was using SS2 (and, even if not agreeing with the Daizenshuu statement of him being one against Dabura, Vegeta did seem to put emphasis on the rustiness of his skills specifically). Therefore, if we take what the Daizenshuu has to say about Goten, Gohan and Cell, we'd end up with a chain of SSJ Gohan (Cell Games) = SSJ Gohan (Boo Arc) ~ "Full Speed" Perfect Cell > SSJ Goten, with Goten having not changed much still possibly being enough to give him an edge in power

That's true, well remembered these other statements from the Daiz that I forgot to take into account. The Daiz states Gohan hasn't changed due to lacking of training (possibly indicating the only difference lies in the SSJ2 state) and also states that Goten isn't the "least bit inferior" to Gohan, which, following the Daiz only, would place kid Goten about even with this Cell in question. I generally try to write these statements off though. For one, would it make sense for Gohan's SSJ2 state to be labeled as "far, far worse" than Kid Gohan's SSJ2 state from the CGs but for his SSJ to stay the same? Even if the difference lied mainly in the rage catayst, Vegeta also does mention Gohan looks out of shape when seeing merely his base form. The later entry also cites the "not being training" as a factor for his loss of power. As for Goten, he being equal to Gohan would bump in him not hitting Gohan once and Gohan being worried that Goten and Trunks WILL surpass him, that AFTER knowing Trunks > Goten,

 

[Captain Cadaver]

For one, would it make sense for Gohan's SSJ2 state to be labeled as "far, far worse" than Kid Gohan's SSJ2 state from the CGs but for his SSJ to stay the same? Even if the difference lied mainly in the rage catayst, Vegeta also does mention Gohan looks out of shape when seeing merely his base form. The later entry also cites the "not being training" as a factor for his loss of power.

The rage boost was the catalyst as, not only does the Daizenshuu entries support the idea of him getting one with statements about his power at the end of the beam struggle as well as implying Enraged SS2 Gohan > SPC > SS2 Gohan, but Vegeta states Gohan was stronger when he defeated/killed Cell (ie. his enraged state). Being out of shape wouldn't necessarily lead to a vast decrease in power but more so in the utilisation of it through his rusty skills, considering two fighters of equal power obviously aren't going to be equal in a fight if one is severely lacking in skill. Not training and, thus, making your body unused to things such as the power from rage would obviously impact one's peak and abilities to harness their true strength even if we assume his base and SSJ power remained about equal.

In any case, it's worth noting that the Daizenshuu suggests the gap between these versions of Gohan as being practically equals whereas Goten isn't "explosively" stronger than before, so it can be deduced that, regardless of how you think Boo Arc Gohan's power stacks up to his Cell Games self, the gap between Boo Arc and EoZ Goten ought to be a fair bit greater.

As for Goten, he being equal to Gohan would bump in him not hitting Gohan once and Gohan being worried that Goten and Trunks WILL surpass him, that AFTER knowing Trunks > Goten,

Firstly, do you have the source for the entry of Gohan = Goten? Don't think I've seen that.

Secondly, it's again worth pointing out the difference in skill. Goten may have had raw power on par with Gohan's, but his skill was even less than rusty Gohan's with him being unable to fly initially and even being unable to control the trajectory of his "Kamekameha" and Trunks' skill wasn't superior enough he could gain a solid edge in their fight beyond breaking the SSJ rule. Even taking the Daizenshuu entry as absolute, it wouldn't be a stretch to say Trunks had yet to surpass Gohan thoroughly when his skills as a fighter were still fairly unrefined.

 

[SSJ2]

[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention] from D2

 

[SSJ2]

Also just noticed this:

This seems to directly state that Goten/Trunks didn't even train after the Boo arc. Interesting.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

It's worth noting this wouldn't directly contradict the idea of them getting stronger though, since developing into an adult body would logically provide greater physical strength and likely better harnessing of Ki. This could also be why the Daizenshuu only views Boo Arc Gohan as having not changed in power, the affects of getting rusty balancing out the natural development of his body (or, in the case of Goten, it's worth noting his body was far younger and less developed than Gohan being history's most jacked 9-10 year old at the Cell Games).

 

[Six Trails]

I like to think Goten and Trunks trained for a few years before becoming slackers like they were at the end of Z. Boo arc Goten wasn't terribly far off from this version of Cell so by the end of Z I think he'd win handily.