(FF Freeza > Z Team) > (1st Form Freeza > Z Team)

[FeatsofPower]

I've brought this up before. But wanted to reiterate it since I'm watching this part of the series right now.

Against 1st Form Freeza, Vegeta thinks they can win via teamwork. Against Final Form Freeza, Vegeta abandons all hope of teamwork being an option. Final Form Freeza is superior to Piccolo and Gohan by such a margin that their help can't be seen as effective whereas Krillen and Gohan are powerful enough to be effective against 1st Form Freeza.

This fact should be yet another point that easily destroys this 3 million Base Goku narrative. The evidence is simply overwhelming.

 

[Kyo]

There’s so much at this point that the 3 million figure is just

 

[FeatsofPower]

There’s so much at this point that the 3 million figure is just

What’s crazy is my initial FF Freeza level of 5 million is probably too low.

One could easily make Vegeta and initial FF around 9/10 million and not bat an eye, actually it might be the most reasonable lol.


Piccolo 1,750,000
Enraged Gohan 2,250,000

Vegeta 9,000,000
Freeza 10,000,000


This probably is more accurate than

Vegeta 4,500,000
Freeza 5,000,000

Sheesh. Even I’m a nerfer.

The idea that the ultimate bloater AT somehow becomes the ultimate nerfer once he doesn’t display power levels is a silly notion.

Now don’t get me wrong, Vegeta intends on defeating Freeza himself because he believes he is a Super Saiyan and wants to show off is a factor. So is the idea that Freeza then powers up so much that he can easily kick back Vegeta’s strongest attack so that changes things a bit.

Like Vegeta didn’t want help at all. And then it’s clear that help won’t work.

But it feels as if help won’t work anyway in the beginning, which completely melts our minds on Freeza’s actual power. He truly is like a bottomless pit of power. Simply amazing.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I remember CC totally debunked you on this. BoZ humans are like 70% of Goku and they couldn't do anything to Piccolo. But we're ignoring BoZ numbers here right?

Wait how did we get to 9/10 million? You just said Vegeta wants to fight alone because he was a SSJ!

 

[FeatsofPower]

I remember CC totally debunked you on this. BoZ humans are like 70% of Goku and they couldn't do anything to Piccolo. But we're ignoring BoZ numbers here right?

Yeah, the BoZ numbers have been proven to be inaccurate time and time again. If we intend on going the consistency route, the narrative would remain. The humans cannot touch Piccolo at the BoZ even if they all ganged up on him even with Kami. Remember, Kami is still superior to the humans at this point. So AT messed up the numbers here for sure.

Wait how did we get to 9/10 million? You just said Vegeta wants to fight alone because he was a SSJ!

Yes, that is indeed the narrative. This is a nuanced topic.

Do you think if they helped Vegeta fight, they could be effective?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yeah, the BoZ numbers have been proven to be inaccurate time and time again. If we intend on going the consistency route, the narrative would remain. The humans cannot touch Piccolo at the BoZ even if they all ganged up on him even with Kami. Remember, Kami is still superior to the humans at this point. So AT messed up the numbers here for sure.


Yes, that is indeed the narrative. This is a nuanced topic.

Do you think if they helped Vegeta fight, they could be effective?

That's something I've been thinking about. Sure, it makes sense, but we're also literally throwing away stated facts in the story. Those are the very first numbers stated in the series.

I think it's a much better conclusion to just say scouters didn't mean anything before Raditz because reasons.

Yes, that is indeed the narrative. This is a nuanced topic.

Do you think if they helped Vegeta fight, they could be effective?

That's actually trickier than you might think. They couldn't even see Freeza moving around, but they saved Goku's ass when he was making that Genki-Dama.

 

[FeatsofPower]

That's something I've been thinking about. Sure, it makes sense, but we're also literally throwing away stated facts in the story. Those are the very first numbers stated in the series.

Errors are indeed errors. The author is subject to making errors. Some errors have been corrected like Vegeta being “rising to 20,000” instead of “30,000”, some errors haven’t been corrected and some errors the author himself is not even aware of. The author is a reasonable, logical man, if he only knew of the issues he created, surely he’d take steps to correct them.

I think it's a much better conclusion to just say scouters didn't mean anything before Raditz because reasons.

That doesn’t work at all from an in universe perspective. Neither is it the most reasonable choice either.

That's actually trickier than you might think. They couldn't even see Freeza moving around, but they saved Goku's ass when he was making that Genki-Dama.

Dragonball is inconsistent. The goal here is to make the areas that can be made consistent, be consistent. There are areas that cannot be made consistent.

Would you agree that consistency is favorable to inconsistency?

CC and many others have made the argument, “Hey, it’s all inconsistent so let me do whatever I want and if you don’t I’ll attack you personally for suggesting consistently should be a thing.”

This is an invalid argument. Consistency is obviously preferable over inconsistency.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

That doesn’t work at all from an in universe perspective. Neither is it the most reasonable choice either.

In-universe, why did the scouter read bigger numbers?

Would you agree that consistency is favorable to inconsistency?

It's not even an inconsistency, it's because it's a very specific situation. He was just standing there, toying with a post-KK, worn out Goku. If he's moving around with Vegeta, then it's a whole different game.

 

[FeatsofPower]

In-universe, why did the scouter read bigger numbers?

There is no in-universe answer for that. The hand of God made an error not the universe.

It's not even an inconsistency, it's because it's a very specific situation. He was just standing there, toying with a post-KK, worn out Goku. If he's moving around with Vegeta, then it's a whole different game.

What are we talking about here?

Are you talking about the Kamehameha vs Galick Gun battle?

 

[FeatsofPower]

@GreatSaiyaman123

Shoot. Check out these numbers.


Final Form
Freeza 100
Vegeta 90
Gohan 45
Piccolo 35


1st Form
Freeza 100
Vegeta 90
Gohan 47
Krillen 37

Man, this is no good. Shoot, this is going to ruin my whole list. Danggggg… This is really an earth shattering argument here. Man oh man.

I bet there are some quotes to further press the logic, but narrative wise, I’d assume all viewers would generally agree. That Piccolo and Gohan are just too far gone to help out against Freeza at all.

Let’s try with the simple doubling of Freeza and Vegeta’s power.


Freeza 100
Vegeta 90
Gohan 22.5
Piccolo 17.5


This feels much more accurate when I’m watching the show. I knew this to be true years ago but never really accepted it, giving into my own bias.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

There is no in-universe answer for that. The hand of God made an error not the universe.

But is rewritting something made so explicit really the best answer?

What are we talking about here?

Are you talking about the Kamehameha vs Galick Gun battle?

About Freeza. Piccolo and co. could help because Freeza was just standing there beating a tired Goku.

If Vegeta and Freeza were close, they'd be having those fast-paced battles and nobody would even see them.

 

[FeatsofPower]

But is rewritting something made so explicit really the best answer?

Well we aren’t rewriting anything. We are simply more accurately portraying the author’s intentions in a numerically superior way.

About Freeza. Piccolo and co. could help because Freeza was just standing there beating a tired Goku.

Oh, but they couldn’t help Goku win the battle. An accurate analogy would be the idea that…

KKx10 Goku + Piccolo and Gohan can beat 50% Freeza.

You have to actually be able to win with your team.

It’s possible Piccolo and Gohan can help Vegeta defeat Inital True Form Freeza, but do you actually believe that?

I feel that the narrative entails that Vegeta is so far ahead of the others their help is completely useless. Unless you have a different idea.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Well we aren’t rewriting anything. We are simply more accurately portraying the author’s intentions in a numerically superior way.

Fair enough. I'm in.

Oh, but they couldn’t help Goku win the battle. An accurate analogy would be the idea that…

KKx10 Goku + Piccolo and Gohan can beat 50% Freeza.

You have to actually be able to win with your team.

It’s possible Piccolo and Gohan can help Vegeta defeat Inital True Form Freeza, but do you actually believe that?

I feel that the narrative entails that Vegeta is so far ahead of the others their help is completely useless. Unless you have a different idea.

KKx10 Goku is nowhere near 50% Freeza though. A closer analogy is KKx20 Goku vs 50% Freeza. I don't really know what to believe because there's a l

It's just confusing because the narrative pushes the same idea for Goku vs Freeza, Piccolo even says he feels like their Ki's alone could crush him, but he does help anyway after Freeza does a +20x power up. Freeza surviving the Genki-Dama was pure plot armor.

Anyway, this is what I have.

1st form:
Vegeta: 100
Gohan: 52
Kuririn: 41

True form:
Vegeta: 100
Gohan: 47
Piccolo: 35

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

To be fair, could 1st form Freeza not do all this to Kuririn, Pre-Zenkai Gohan and Pre-Nail Piccolo?

 

[FeatsofPower]

Piccolo even says he feels like their Ki's alone could crush him

That might be a Vizism, we gotta check that quote again. And is it regarding Base Goku vs Freeza? If that indeed is the quote, that's quite a feat for a quote. A feat quote? A quote feat? Yeah, that's better.

To be fair, could 1st form Freeza not do all this to Kuririn, Pre-Zenkai Gohan and Pre-Nail Piccolo?

No doubt he could. But remember, that's not really the issue.

1st form:
Vegeta: 100
Gohan: 52
Kuririn: 41

True form:
Vegeta: 100
Gohan: 47
Piccolo: 35

I think we can get away with it, but we have to dig a little. And see what we find.

First off, do you think they can help against Final Form Freeza? If Initial Final Form Freeza is his max, could they help push Vegeta to victory? I think it's definitely possible, what about you? But I'm leaning towards, probably not.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Fair enough. I'm in.

Cool, thanks so much for finding my old numbers. I'd been looking for them. I had fixed a lot of problems with that list and wasn't looking forward to doing early DB again without it. Just gotta look into this KK vs Galick Gun issue and apply the new logic that Dragon Fist is a 10x boost and it should be pretty much done.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

It's really tough because we're comparing two hypotheticals. 1st form Freeza vs Vegeta and co. never happened, so who can we compare 4th form Freeza vs Vegeta and co. to that?

Also teamwork always uses the dumbest logic possible to work. Raditz, Nappa and Recoome (Kuririn made him lose his teeth) were all fools. Jeice distracting Goku didn't make much sense.

 

[FeatsofPower]

It's really tough because we're comparing two hypotheticals. 1st form Freeza vs Vegeta and co. never happened, so who can we compare 4th form Freeza vs Vegeta and co. to that?

Our closest example is probably Kami helping Goku vs Piccolo, and Jeice helping Ginyu vs Goku.

The Kami example probably points out that anyone can help out.

Also teamwork always uses the dumbest logic possible to work. Raditz, Nappa and Recoome (Kuririn made him lose his teeth) were all fools. Jeice distracting Goku didn't make much sense.

Haha indeed. How about the teamwork logic in Super, which completely breaks the status quo. 3 guys at level 1 can somehow hold their own against a level 1,000 lol.

Well a lot of those issues are explainable. Krillen doing that makes sense. Krillen dodging Nappa doesn't make sense, but you can say Nappa is just foolish with his attack.

Jeice distracting Goku makes sense being it was a big ki blast he had ample time to prep.

I think any help when it's that close can really help.

Also, Vegeta/Trunks helping out Goku vs Cell didn't seem like they could do anything until Cell got much weaker if we go based off what Trunks was saying, right? Which would contradict the whole Vegeta vs 1st Form thing.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Anyway, I'm satisfied with the numbers I've got. Even Enraged Gohan fails to reach 50% of Initial Freeza.

Actually, it's sort of unfair that we're using normal Gohan when comparing 1st form and enraged Gohan for true form.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Actually, it's sort of unfair that we're using normal Gohan when comparing 1st form and enraged Gohan for true form.

I don't agree. Vegeta is always shocked by Gohan's rage ability, he's not counting on it when he makes the statement regarding 1st Form Freeza.

Anyway, I'm satisfied with the numbers I've got. Even Enraged Gohan fails to reach 50% of Initial Freeza.

Yeah, I think we can just manage it.