Freeza fight power levels

ahill1

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When Goku used it vs Freeza, he had that rough aura which he hadn't shown in his base state before and white-ish eyes which were already used to illustrate the Kaioken

IMG_20231017_224359.jpg
Seems pretty much a Kaioken aura, with the intensity, white-ish eyes, which matches the first time he used it:

IMG_20231017_224837.jpg

Fierce and consistent sparks at the edge of it.

IMG_20231017_224946.jpg
When he used it vs Vegeta, he also had the white-ish eyes. While that's not 100% consistent with Kaioken, it's one of the few instances Toriyama portrays Goku with a white pupil.

Vs Ginyu he also had those traits, the fierce aura and the white-ish pupils, tho the sparks at the edge were more spread out

IMG_20231017_225124.jpg

And he had a very similar aura when he was in fact using the Kaioken x10 vs Freeza, only the white pupils weren't as clear

IMG_20231017_224420.jpg

That was fighting 50% Freeza.

So I really don't see why Toriyama would illustrate the aura that way, possessing all traits a Kaioken-like Goku does and had barely shown before when not using Kaioken if he didn't intend it as Kaioken. At least it can't be given as a false information as the cues are clear enough.

Tenshinhan also specified "you mean he has been using the Kaioken 10x??" In response to Kaio, meaning that was the main intent of him introducing the Kaioken. Not that they simply forgot the technique, moreso what it can accomplish with its potential for many fold increases

IMG_20231017_224541.jpg
 

FeatsofPower

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Freeza shows the same kind of stuff with his eyes, is he using Kk as well?
 

FeatsofPower

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When does Freeza show it?
Everyone shows it. It's literally the flight aura arc. There's more flight auras during the Freeza battles then any other time in the series. Any time anyone is showing any sort of concentration or intense effort, their eyes are blank. It's an indication of effort, Kaioken just happens to require effort.
 

ahill1

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The other time I see Goku using white eyes is when he's in pain, distress, agony, or using a Kiai with his eyes. Outside of it, when charging at someone, white eyes seem like a Kaioken thing. Prove otherwise.
 

SSJ2

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When Goku used it vs Freeza, he had that rough aura which he hadn't shown in his base state before and white-ish eyes which were already used to illustrate the Kaioken

View attachment 2688
Seems pretty much a Kaioken aura, with the intensity, white-ish eyes, which matches the first time he used it:

View attachment 2689

Fierce and consistent sparks at the edge of it.

View attachment 2690
When he used it vs Vegeta, he also had the white-ish eyes. While that's not 100% consistent with Kaioken, it's one of the few instances Toriyama portrays Goku with a white pupil.

Vs Ginyu he also had those traits, the fierce aura and the white-ish pupils, tho the sparks at the edge were more spread out

View attachment 2691

And he had a very similar aura when he was in fact using the Kaioken x10 vs Freeza, only the white pupils weren't as clear

View attachment 2692

That was fighting 50% Freeza.

So I really don't see why Toriyama would illustrate the aura that way, possessing all traits a Kaioken-like Goku does and had barely shown before when not using Kaioken if he didn't intend it as Kaioken. At least it can't be given as a false information as the cues are clear enough.

Tenshinhan also specified "you mean he has been using the Kaioken 10x??" In response to Kaio, meaning that was the main intent of him introducing the Kaioken. Not that they simply forgot the technique, moreso what it can accomplish with its potential for many fold increases

View attachment 2693
You’re completely ignoring the fact that Goku only has the aura during flight. When Goku is attacking with Kaioken he consistently maintains the aura during his attacks. Against no hands Freeza there is only an aura when he is flying. It disappears as soon as he starts attacking. That’s not consistent with Kaioken.
 

FeatsofPower

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The other time I see Goku using white eyes is when he's in pain, distress, agony, or using a Kiai with his eyes. Outside of it, when charging at someone, white eyes seem like a Kaioken thing. Prove otherwise.
Yeah, white eyes are used to express emotion. You already disproved yourself. KKx10 Goku had black eyes, so is he not using Kaioken then?
 

ahill1

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You’re completely ignoring the fact that Goku only has the aura during flight. When Goku is attacking with Kaioken he consistently maintains the aura during his attacks. Against no hands Freeza there is only an aura when he is flying. It disappears as soon as he starts attacking. That’s not consistent with Kaioken.
No, Goku's aura disappears plenty of times when he's fighting 50% Freeza. He has shown a Kaioken aura there for like, 2 or 3 panels.
 

SSJ2

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No, Goku's aura disappears plenty of times when he's fighting 50% Freeza. He has shown a Kaioken aura there for like, 2 or 3 panels.
Because Freeza was knocking his ass out of it. Go look at Goku’s use of Kaioken x2 and x3 in the Saiyan arc, or his x20 vs Freeza when he was able to sustain it. The aura remains a constant.
 

ahill1

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Yeah, white eyes are used to express emotion. You already disproved yourself. KKx10 Goku had black eyes, so is he not using Kaioken then?
Show an instance of Goku having white eyes and a fierce aura besides that one that's not Kaioken. There was no emotion there, he was charging at Freeza. You need to show white eyes and fierce aura when Goku is charging at someone and a flight aura is confirmed as the case.
 

ahill1

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IMG_20231017_232521.jpg
Goku didn't use a Kaioken aura here when kicking Freeza...

Nor here

IMG_20231017_232554.jpg
Nor here.

He has shown it for attacking and running away. And it wasn't always consistent when attacking. Vs no hands Freeza, there're three panels of him using the aura. I've already read the Vegeta fight plenty of times. Vegeta didn't knock Goku out of Kaioken when hitting. The aura disappeared a while later.

IMG_20231017_233029.jpg
He didn't lose the aura when Vegeta's attack grazed him.

IMG_20231017_233044.jpg

He didn't lose the aura when Vegeta kicked him, heck in the next panel he still had it.

Which shows AT was just not consistent in always showing Kaioken auras when he has already shown them once or twice.

@SSJ2
 

FeatsofPower

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I don't think he ever has a Kaioken aura against Freeza, he's just using a flight aura.
 

ahill1

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IMG_20231017_234025.jpg
He had an aura here when Freeza kicked him... So it clearly didn't disappear everytime he was hit.

IMG_20231017_234126.jpg
He didn't show a Kaioken aura when protecting himself from Freeza's strongest attack shown until then... And Kaioken increases his defenses too.

Point being: AT just didn't care to illustrate the Kaioken aura everytime. He made it a point by showing it once or twice and that's it.
 

SSJ2

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Which shows AT was just not consistent in always showing Kaioken auras when he has already shown them once or twice.
I don’t believe he was consistently using x10 though. He was getting his shit kicked in so badly by Freeza that I think he was just trying to fend him off at some points.
 

FeatsofPower

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View attachment 2699
He had an aura here when Freeza kicked him... So it clearly didn't disappear everytime he was hit.

View attachment 2700
He didn't show a Kaioken aura when protecting himself from Freeza's strongest attack shown until then... And Kaioken increases his defenses too.

Point being: AT just didn't care to illustrate the Kaioken aura everytime. He made it a point by showing it once or twice and that's it.
Those are just flight auras. Goku never has a Kaioken aura against Freeza, look, Freeza has an aura there too. It's just two flight auras crashing against each other.
 

ahill1

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I don’t believe he was consistently using x10 though. He was getting his shit kicked in so badly by Freeza that I think he was just trying to fend him off at some points.
There's no reason not to have a Kaioken aura when being hit as it also increases one's defenses. We saw in the Vegeta fight he didn't lose it immediately upon being hit. So it seems AT just didn't make a point to show it always . He made a point by illustrating it in the attack moment firstly and being inconsistent in drawing it later on.
 
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