Freeza Return - How strong?

[SSJ2]

It's not really stated otherwise. At the time, Ultimate makes more sense because that is beyond Gohan's current limits, but limits change as we know. Once he begins to develop more latent power, Super Saiyan could increase on his Ultimate state (which I don't view as a form, just Base).

 

[Evil Vegeta]

To be honest, Super just hasn't done a good job of explaining things. Gohan hardly did anything for seven yrs after the Cell Games, yet he could still become Super Saiyan with no visible strain. In Super, he isn't sure if his body could hold the transformation. It doesn't make any sense.

If Super Saiyan stacks on Ultimate, that would be a good explanation as for why there's so much strain.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

It's not really stated otherwise. At the time, Ultimate makes more sense because that is beyond Gohan's current limits, but limits change as we know. Once he begins to develop more latent power, Super Saiyan could increase on his Ultimate state (which I don't view as a form, just Base).

Didn't Elder-Kai say that transforming isn't the way to go, and that ultimate was better? I thought I remembered that.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Yeah, he definitely said that.

My guess is Ultimate was originally the best transformation for Gohan, but Super had to give him a reason to go beyond that because he hasn't been training.

I guess a lot of this comes down to how you view Tagoma.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Yeah, he definitely said that.

My guess is Ultimate was originally the best transformation for Gohan, but Super had to give him a reason to go beyond that because he hasn't been training.

I guess a lot of this comes down to how you view Tagoma.

Freeza is one thing, but random hench-mengs of his being higher than Ultimate-Gohan is just too weird for me.

 

[SSJ2]

It's not really stated otherwise. At the time, Ultimate makes more sense because that is beyond Gohan's current limits, but limits change as we know. Once he begins to develop more latent power, Super Saiyan could increase on his Ultimate state (which I don't view as a form, just Base).

Didn't Elder-Kai say that transforming isn't the way to go, and that ultimate was better? I thought I remembered that.

Well of course, that's just logical. Base > Super Saiyan no matter what. Even though Gohan mastered the form, there is still stamina drain whereas Base has none.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Yeah, he definitely said that.

My guess is Ultimate was originally the best transformation for Gohan, but Super had to give him a reason to go beyond that because he hasn't been training.

I guess a lot of this comes down to how you view Tagoma.

Freeza is one thing, but random hench-mengs of his being higher than Ultimate-Gohan is just too weird for me.

Honestly, a random henchman being able to effortlessly kick Piccolo's ass is even too much.

Goten and Trunks felt as though they needed to merge into Gotenks to challenge him, though.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

It's not really stated otherwise. At the time, Ultimate makes more sense because that is beyond Gohan's current limits, but limits change as we know. Once he begins to develop more latent power, Super Saiyan could increase on his Ultimate state (which I don't view as a form, just Base).

Didn't Elder-Kai say that transforming isn't the way to go, and that ultimate was better? I thought I remembered that.

Well of course, that's just logical. Base > Super Saiyan no matter what. Even though Gohan mastered the form, there is still stamina drain whereas Base has none.

That does make sense, now that I think about it. The statement being about power wouldn't make all that much sense.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Yeah, he definitely said that.

My guess is Ultimate was originally the best transformation for Gohan, but Super had to give him a reason to go beyond that because he hasn't been training.

I guess a lot of this comes down to how you view Tagoma.

Freeza is one thing, but random hench-mengs of his being higher than Ultimate-Gohan is just too weird for me.

Honestly, a random henchman being able to effortlessly kick Piccolo's ass is even too much.

Goten and Trunks felt as though they needed to merge into Gotenks to challenge him, though.

I remember a time when all these powers felt special. Now no power, not even the God-powers, feel special.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

What's funny is suppressed Tagoma was only said to surpass the Ginyu Force. Didn't stop him from one-shotting Shisami and Base Gohan.

Base Gohan has done no training and he's considered the strongest of the Earth team. A lot of stuff just makes no sense in Super.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

What's funny is suppressed Tagoma was only said to surpass the Ginyu Force. Didn't stop him from one-shotting Shisami and Base Gohan.

Base Gohan has done no training and he's considered the strongest of the Earth team. A lot of stuff just makes no sense in Super.

& some-how captain-ginyu can be a better tagoma than tagoma himself can be

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Jaco said Ginyu was the type of being who could draw the limits out of someone's body.

He could only reach 23k with Goku's body on Namek

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Jaco said Ginyu was the type of being who could draw the limits out of someone's body.

He could only reach 23k with Goku's body on Namek

that, too

they didn't even explain that contradiction, even-tho it didn't rly need to be a contradiction had they re-explained wot goku explained in the namek-saga

& that goku needs both his soul & himself literally to draw-out his full-power, where-as i assume tagoma was just all powaaaaah

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Yeah, that's a good point. Tagoma just bragged that he got a lot stronger and acquired a body of steel, so he's more simple to figure out than Goku.

My issue was Ginyu was depicted as not being a typical space brute like the others. He said he could alter his power unlike the others, and he could tell Goku was suppressing his power. Even if he couldn't use the Kaio-Ken, I'd like to think he could've gotten more than 23k when Goku's maximum output was way above that. Maybe if Ginyu had more time with the body he could've gotten more power out of it. It's certainly interesting to think about.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Yeah, that's a good point. Tagoma just bragged that he got a lot stronger and acquired a body of steel, so he's more simple to figure out than Goku.

My issue was Ginyu was depicted as not being a typical space brute like the others. He said he could alter his power unlike the others, and he could tell Goku was suppressing his power. Even if he couldn't use the Kaio-Ken, I'd like to think he could've gotten more than 23k when Goku's maximum output was way above that. Maybe if Ginyu had more time with the body he could've gotten more power out of it. It's certainly interesting to think about.

the plot-holes of db-super can already be counted in a book & we are not even 50 episodes in 1 1 1

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Piccolo eats now. How the fuck did he develop an appetite?

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Piccolo eats now. How the fuck did he develop an appetite?

Everything in DragonBall-Super (at 1 point, not sure whether it's still the same) is abt food, even piccolo

 

[Papasmurf]

Piccolo eats now. How the fuck did he develop an appetite?

He ate so many senzus he became carnivorous.

As for the discussion of Ginyu controlling bodies, you could maybe say that Ginyu can usually control bodies fairly well, which was why he was unaware of how weak he got in Goku's despite either showing Jheese his body-change or using it before, and that's why he was a better Tagoma than Tagoma himself. Goku was shielded by the power of plot-hax (which later contributed to his ridiculous zenkai against Freeza) and was harder to figure out due to spamming Kaioken so much (also falling in the "plot hax" category 1 )

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Piccolo eats now. How the fuck did he develop an appetite?

He ate so many senzus he became carnivorous.

I sometimes need to look-up dictionaries to understand what you're saying.

 

[Papasmurf]