Freeza vs Vegeta/Goku Levels

[Power Level Guy]

I can’t find the thread I had for this where Kyo gave his breakdown of Freeza’s power. I wanted to revisit this one more time.

So how strong is Freeza vs Goku initially. The Death Beams and his first strike?

Has Freeza reverted his power to his initial power against Vegeta or is he using the power he kicked backed the Final Burst Cannon?

I think it’s important we really hone in one Piccolo and the others reactions. As well as Vegeta. Is Vegeta capable of ki sensing here? What does Vegeta expect to happen?

What do Piccolo and the others expect to happen?

Are they ever surprised at further power ups? Where they weren’t expecting anything?

 

[Hector]

Freeza at first thought Goku was an ordinary Saiyan, so I see no reason for him to start out at anything above the very initial suppression of his 4th form.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Freeza at first thought Goku was an ordinary Saiyan, so I see no reason for him to start out at anything above the very initial suppression of his 4th form.

That's what I think as well. I want to look into the character reactions to 100% this though. I just want to put this issue completely to bed.

The quick escalation of Freeza's power to a little above Goku suggests he's already introduced that power since there's no talk of an amazing power-up, you know? All power-ups are generally noted, so that seems to be the case here.

 

[SIAD]

So:

Frieza (Deflecting Final Burst Cannon) = Frieza (Warm-up against Goku) >= Base Goku (Suppressed) >= Frieza (Initial against Goku) > Vegeta (Final Burst Cannon) > Frieza (Speed increase against Vegeta) >> Frieza Fourth Form ( Initial) ~ Vegeta (Final Zenkai Power)?

 

[SSJ2]

Vegeta's reaction is pretty telling. He could immediately sense that Goku was different than before and even told Freeza not to take him lightly. The same Freeza that just kicked his shit in...

Would Vegeta really be laughing about Goku's chances against Freeza if he only figured he was stronger than Freeza's weakest suppression form? At the very least initial Goku should be ahead of Freeza's increased speed level. Doubtful that he's ahead of Freeza when kicking Vegeta's blast though.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Frieza Fourth Form ( Initial) ~ Vegeta (Final Zenkai Power)?

I think Freeza is a bit stronger here, maybe the same as he was before with 1st Form. Vegeta is crapping himself, the legend of the Super Saiyan is what is hyping himself up more than anything. He's definitely a distant rival though.

>= Base Goku (Suppressed) >= Frieza (Initial against Goku) > Vegeta (Attack) > Frieza (Speed

I don't think there's a difference in Freeza's speed and power against the FBC. Freeza is moving so fast Vegeta can't see, that's a huge feat on par with kicking back the blast imo. They just can't translate his speed to his power, they often mistake their expectations of how ki blast would end up working.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Vegeta's reaction is pretty telling. He could immediately sense that Goku was different than before and even told Freeza not to take him lightly. The same Freeza that just kicked his shit in...

So is this after Freeza gets kicked? Does this confirm he was just taking him lightly?

Would Vegeta really be laughing about Goku's chances against Freeza if he only figured he was stronger than Freeza's weakest suppression form? At the very least initial Goku should be ahead of Freeza's increased speed level. Doubtful that he's ahead of Freeza when kicking Vegeta's blast though.

I think it's like this...

Freeza (Kicking Back FBC) = Warm Up Freeza.

I don't think Freeza shows a new level of power until the No Hands segment.

 

[SSJ2]

So is this after Freeza gets kicked? Does this confirm he was just taking him lightly?

I don't think so necessarily. The whole point is Vegeta shouldn't be confident in Goku if he knew Freeza was still ahead of that level significantly. I've got it like this:

Vegeta =< Initial 4th Form Freeza </< Freeza increased speed < Goku initial < Goku warm up = Freeza warm up/Freeza kicking blast < Goku FP =< Freeza no hands

 

[Power Level Guy]

Vegeta =< Initial 4th Form Freeza </< Freeza increased speed < Goku initial < Goku warm up = Freeza warm up/Freeza kicking blast < Goku FP =< Freeza no hands

Yeah, that's pretty much how I have it.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Ok, just read through it. Vegeta tells Freeza not to take Goku lightly, that means Freeza wasn't going full bore yet. It makes perfect sense for Freeza to be using his initial power on Goku in the beginning.

 

[SSJ2]

Freeza already got smashed by Goku before using the death beams. He would have adjusted his power after being kicked. Then Vegeta told him not to take Goku lightly. That's why it makes most sense for Freeza to be at his increased speed level after the initial engagement, then he moves to warm up level after he kills Vegeta.

 

[SIAD]

@Power Level Guy
@SSJ2

There is something that contradicts:

Frieza (Warmup vs. Goku) > Base Goku (Initial) > Frieza (Initial vs. Goku) = Frieza (Vs Final Burst Cannon)?

Perhaps Vegeta realized that Frieza had not yet demonstrated his full power.

What gap is there between Frieza (Vs Final Burst Cannon) over Vegeta (Final Burst Cannon)?

 

[Power Level Guy]

Freeza already got smashed by Goku before using the death beams. He would have adjusted his power after being kicked.

Hmm, I don't think so. His means of escalation were to use Death Beams, not power-up.

I'd say it's more like this.

Goku (Actual) > Death Beam > Expected Goku > Freeza

He's already using more power via the Death Beam. Goku dodging Freeza and hitting him could indeed be another level of power, but it's probably more of an effort based thing than anything.

Freeza said, "Ok you can dodge my attack, now dodge this!" is more the narrative. No need for Freeza to power-up at this point.

Then Vegeta told him not to take Goku lightly.

Freeza took him lightly for both attacks. Freeza used only his initial power against Goku and Vegeta knows Freeza has more in the tank.

That's why it makes most sense for Freeza to be at his increased speed level after the initial engagement, then he moves to warm up level after he kills Vegeta.

There is likely no difference between his increased speed and kicking back the FBC. For Freeza to have the type of speed feats he has on Vegeta, he should be able to kick back the FBC as well. Vegeta cannot see Freeza. What seems to be happening is a underestimation of the opponents power, more than the opponent powering up more.

This happens often with ki blasts unfortunately. It's a meme at this point.

Vegeta is way ahead of Zarbon, yet Zarbon is shocked that Vegeta can knock away his Elegant Blaster. Was Vegeta not using full power before? Doubtful. But Zarbon underestimated just how much better Vegeta was, despite knowing his power level and fighting him.

Put it this way, fighters are nearly always shocked when their ki blast doesn't work. It happens like every single time. It's rather annoying honestly.

 

[SSJ2]

@Power Level Guy here's my main issue with that. Vegeta was close enough to initial 4th Form Freeza that he thought he had a chance against him. Delusion was obviously a part of that, but Vegeta was actually able to keep up with his movements so he can't have been that far away. Freeza then states that he raised his speed a little, and that was enough to toy with Vegeta. What we saw when Freeza kicked back the blast wasn't a little change in effort, it was an astronomical change from anything he had shown in his 4th form. I don't see how they can be the same level personally.

 

[SIAD]

@SSJ2

There is something that contradicts:

Frieza (Warmup vs. Goku) > Base Goku (Initial) > Frieza (Initial vs. Goku) = Frieza (Vs Final Burst Cannon)?

Perhaps Vegeta realized that Frieza had not yet demonstrated his full power.

What gap is there between Frieza (Vs Final Burst Cannon) over Vegeta (Final Burst Cannon)?

 

[Power Level Guy]

@Power Level Guy here's my main issue with that. Vegeta was close enough to initial 4th Form Freeza that he thought he had a chance against him. Delusion was obviously a part of that, but Vegeta was actually able to keep up with his movements so he can't have been that far away. Freeza then states that he raised his speed a little, and that was enough to toy with Vegeta. What we saw when Freeza kicked back the blast wasn't a little change in effort, it was an astronomical change from anything he had shown in his 4th form. I don't see how they can be the same level personally.

Yeah I have it as a Goku/Cell gap. He’s rivaling Freeza but barely. He can put up a fight. Should be a similar gap to what he showed before against 1st Form Freeza. He has the same exact level of concern and similar levels of cockiness.

Sometimes striking and avoiding require varying levels of effort. Look at Goku vs the the Ginyu Force. Zero effort dodging, max effort striking.

Do you think Goku was using less power while dodging than he was while striking?

 

[SSJ2]

Maybe. But even when Goku KO'd Burter it looked like less effort than what Freeza put in. Freeza's eyes had the look of him getting serious there. You'd have to have some exceptionally low ki amplification on Vegeta to justify Freeza being able to do that with his increased speed level.

 

[SSJ2]

@SSJ2

There is something that contradicts:

Frieza (Warmup vs. Goku) > Base Goku (Initial) > Frieza (Initial vs. Goku) = Frieza (Vs Final Burst Cannon)?

Perhaps Vegeta realized that Frieza had not yet demonstrated his full power.

What gap is there between Frieza (Vs Final Burst Cannon) over Vegeta (Final Burst Cannon)?

It should be a pretty big gap. He kicked the attack away and had no superficial damage from it.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Freeza being able to do that with his increased speed level.

Freeza is massively faster than Vegeta though. It’s not a small jump.

Like the speed feats Freeza showed against Vegeta perfectly line up with his power feats. They are identical.

 

[SSJ2]

Freeza is massively faster than Vegeta though. It’s not a small jump.

Like the speed feats Freeza showed against Vegeta perfectly line up with his power feats. They are identical.

What are your numbers for it?