Freeza's bulky state

[Future Warrior]

Was the beefy muscles a result of his lack of control over his power due to never training or was it a voluntary process similar to the grade forms and Muten Roshi's buff state. DBS seems to imply it's the latter.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

DBS aside I don't think bulking up was ever a voluntary process, be it with Freeza, Roshi or Grade forms. It's basically a product of Ki size being disproportionally higher than Ki control, forcing the muscles to expand out of self preservation. Goku does imply Freeza could've mastered his 100% so I definitely doubt the bulking up happened in purpose.

 

[Future Warrior]

DBS aside I don't think bulking up was ever a voluntary process, be it with Freeza, Roshi or Grade forms. It's basically a product of Ki size being disproportionally higher than Ki control, forcing the muscles to expand out of self preservation. Goku does imply Freeza could've mastered his 100% so I definitely doubt the bulking up happened in purpose.

We see Cell use that state against Trunks to show how easy it is to replicate though. It seems to essentially just be an act of purposely focusing their ki towards their muscles to gain further power, essentially surpassing ''themselves''.

Roshi's probably the only person that uses it in the most efficient way, only opting to use it to destroy large stationary objects, never in actual combat (at least as far as the manga is concerned).

 

[Papasmurf]

Cell draws a distinction between his normal full power (which he used to begin his fight with SSJ2 Gohan) and his bulky state (which actually differs in appearance the two times he showcased it). Bulking up seems like it's an unnatural power up caused by ki stimulating the muscles to enlarge, considering that. Freeza and Frost should still be able to do it in the manga imo, albeit it should probably result in less of a power up than before Freeza trained to master his 4th form.

 

[Future Warrior]

Cell draws a distinction between his normal full power (which he used to begin his fight with SSJ2 Gohan) and his bulky state (which actually differs in appearance the two times he showcased it). Bulking up seems like it's an unnatural power up caused by ki stimulating the muscles to enlarge, considering that. Freeza and Frost should still be able to do it in the manga imo, albeit it should probably result in less of a power up than before Freeza trained to master his 4th form.

So do you think Freeza was consciously enlarging his muscles when powering up or was that just a side effect?

 

[Papasmurf]

Goku said that Freeza held off from revealing his full power state for so long on Namek because he knows his body can't take his full power. Seems like he's aware of the strain that enlarging his muscles has on his body, whereas Piccolo Daimao (who was also strained from full power usage) didn't seem to suffer from shitty stamina, just his lifespan being reduced. I think Freeza's full power form is different from Cell or Piccolo Daimao's full power states, considering that.

 

[Future Warrior]

Goku said that Freeza held off from revealing his full power state for so long on Namek because he knows his body can't take his full power. Seems like he's aware of the strain that enlarging his muscles has on his body, whereas Piccolo Daimao (who was also strained from full power usage) didn't seem to suffer from shitty stamina, just his lifespan being reduced. I think Freeza's full power form is different from Cell or Piccolo Daimao's full power states, considering that.

So what do you think causes this distinction? Lack of ki control?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

So what do you think causes this distinction? Lack of ki control?

I'd say that'd somewhat be it. More precisely, a lack of experience in using it. Even prior to Super, it was clear Freeza wasn't the type to ever need to use anything close to his full power, which would make the effort of having to use 100% all the more great. In the Super manga Freeza seems to have lost this state entirely, which would fall in line with this as this is a Freeza that has finally put in the effort to train himself. Of course, the anime takes a different approach, though the anime's interpretation is full of far too many flaws in its usage by Freeza and Frost (why Frost never used it against Piccolo or Vegeta, for instance).

 

[Future Warrior]

So what do you think causes this distinction? Lack of ki control?

I'd say that'd somewhat be it. More precisely, a lack of experience in using it. Even prior to Super, it was clear Freeza wasn't the type to ever need to use anything close to his full power, which would make the effort of having to use 100% all the more great. In the Super manga Freeza seems to have lost this state entirely, which would fall in line with this as this is a Freeza that has finally put in the effort to train himself. Of course, the anime takes a different approach, though the anime's interpretation is full of far too many flaws in its usage by Freeza and Frost (why Frost never used it against Piccolo or Vegeta, for instance).

So you would say that what happens to Freeza is different from what Muten Roshi and the SSJ Grades are doing?

 

[Papasmurf]

It's also worth noting that Freeza only starts to bulk up around the time he surpasses 80% or so - up to 70%+ he looks no different than his 2-3% self. The muscle mass increase doesn't seem to be proportionate to the amount of power he uses. It could be similar to Grade 2, in the sense that it also increases speed but multiplies the strain applied to the body.

 

[Future Warrior]

It's also worth noting that Freeza only starts to bulk up around the time he surpasses 80% or so - up to 70%+ he looks no different than his 2-3% self. The muscle mass increase doesn't seem to be proportionate to the amount of power he uses. It could be similar to Grade 2, in the sense that it also increases speed but multiplies the strain applied to the body.

Which would mean that the bulk up exceeds his natural power (Which is what DBS implies). CC advocates for the state simply being his lack of experience with handling that sort of power.

The reason I say this is that Freeza treats the bulk up as more of an ability in the ToP when describing it to Frost.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

[mention]Future Warrior[/mention] Cell doesn’t identify the process of buffing up as the cause of the transformation though. He only says it’s “a transformation that powers you up” and at the same time Goku decides he and Gohan should aim for that power without the negative effects of it.

It’s a involuntary process, Daizenshuu 2 even identifies Roshi’s body bulging as a outcome of his body being incapable of handling so much power. This happens very often in the series, with Goku’s body buffing up slightly when he uses Kaio-Ken x3 or Piccolo Daimao becoming larger when he uses his full power.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

So you would say that what happens to Freeza is different from what Muten Roshi and the SSJ Grades are doing?

To some extent. It certainly doesn't have the speed depletion that those forms do, though what GSM is something worth noting. I'd say it's at least different from Grade 3 since that's suggested to be a distinct branch of SSJ rather than standard Ki weighting.

 

[Future Warrior]

@Future Warrior Cell doesn’t identify the process of buffing up as the cause of the transformation though. He only says it’s “a transformation that powers you up” and at the same time Goku decides he and Gohan should aim for that power without the negative effects of it.

It’s a involuntary process, Daizenshuu 2 even identifies Roshi’s body bulging as a outcome of his body being incapable of handling so much power. This happens very often in the series, with Goku’s body buffing up slightly when he uses Kaio-Ken x3 or Piccolo Daimao becoming larger when he uses his full power.

Actually, I'll give you that the muscle increase is probably a form of the body's self preservation to handle the large increase of ki.

So you would say that what happens to Freeza is different from what Muten Roshi and the SSJ Grades are doing?

To some extent. It certainly doesn't have the speed depletion that those forms do, though what GSM is something worth noting. I'd say it's at least different from Grade 3 since that's suggested to be a distinct branch of SSJ rather than standard Ki weighting.

It pretty much is just standard ki weighting. Cell says himself that state is a simple matter to utilize, shortly before he himself displays it. Roshi looks pretty much the same as any Grade 3 I've seen too.