Fusion Levels

[Power Level Guy]

He still looked equal to Gotenks until the very last couple panels. They were landing the exact same attacks on one another the entire fight.

So how do you explain that. Super Buu was able to fight evenly for majority of their fight. So they should be even.

 

[SSJ2]

I’m not trying to argue that they aren’t equal. At best you can argue that Gotenks had a slight advantage. All I’m pointing out is that Boo can take that type of damage at equal levels. Gohan can easily dish out the same type of damage while being say 1.3-1.4x stronger than Super Boo.

 

[ahill1]

I'd agree with the levels, all in all. I'd have some personal preferences, but it's ok to me. I still prefer the

Super Boo/Gotenks - 50 / Ultimate Gohan - 75 / Bootenks - 100

Route personally. I'm cozy with a Gotenks = Super Boo = 66% Ultimate Gohan = 75% Bootenks personally.

I prefer to go with Super Boo and Gotenks as equals. Gotenks looked like he'd finish Super Boo, and he was competitive enough for Piccolo to say Boo was shaken to be challenged by someone at least as powerful as him... The fight indicated an upper hand for Gotenks, but then Super Boo talked like if Gohan were the one who really outdid him... And that he (Boo) had been planning to absorb Gotenks, but he was shocked once he heard the fusion has a time limit ---- which could explain part of his shaken mentality once he came out of the ground when being blasted by Gotenks --- more like, the difficulty on dealing with Gotenks plus the fact he couldn't absorb Gotenks for his plan to defeat Gohan... Still, Gohan didn't seem a big issue with Gotenks fighting Super Boo on their own. But... Maybe Super Boo made it look a little easier than it'd be so he could goad Goten and Trunks into fusing again to enact his plan? Dunno. I like them being equals as the evidence seems interesting for both sides imo.

 

[Power Level Guy]

’m not trying to argue that they aren’t equal. At best you can argue that Gotenks had a slight advantage. All I’m pointing out is that Boo can take that type of damage at equal levels. Gohan can easily dish out the same type of damage while being say 1.3-1.4x stronger than Super Boo.

Yeah, I don't buy it. No one can truly damage the Buu's other than another Buu. I think Super Buu is totally playing it up. He knows he needs Gotenks power later, it's completely within his incentive structure to let Gotenks get over on his so his confidence leads him to fusing again.

Super Boo/Gotenks - 50 / Ultimate Gohan - 75 / Bootenks - 100

Yeah, that indeed is super clean.

Route personally. I'm cozy with a Gotenks = Super Boo = 66% Ultimate Gohan = 75% Bootenks personally.

Me too. I have been on this page for a long time. But I sometimes wonder if Gohan is a bit better than 75%. I bet if we look into the traditional 75% fights and look at Gohan's, Gohan probably outproduces them.

Those numbers we typically go by are pretty much GOATED too. And if you make Base Gokhan 1.5x Gohan, he fits perfectly in between Buutenks and Buuhan.

Gotenk 50
Gohan 75
Buutenks 100
Gokhan 112.5
Buuhan 125

 

[SSJ2]

Yeah, I don't buy it. No one can truly damage the Buu's other than another Buu. I think Super Buu is totally playing it up. He knows he needs Gotenks power later, it's completely within his incentive structure to let Gotenks get over on his so his confidence leads him to fusing again.

Fair enough, I won't fight you on this one. I'm admittedly playing devil's advocate a little bit here. I just feel like the logic of Gotenks Boo not needing to be more than 1.25x Gohan can also apply to Gohan vs Super Boo. If Vegeta and Dodoria had an extended fight I'd bet it wouldn't look too different from Gohan vs Boo.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Fair enough, I won't fight you on this one. I'm admittedly playing devil's advocate a little bit here. I just feel like the logic of Gotenks Boo not needing to be more than 1.25x Gohan can also apply to Gohan vs Super Boo. If Vegeta and Dodoria had an extended fight I'd bet it wouldn't look too different from Gohan vs Boo.

I think Dodoria is suffering from fear quite a bit, I mean, that fight is nothing. Dodoria is a guy who's had a superiority complex and is used to it for years and he's completely broken inside of the idea of Vegeta being stronger. Hmm, we see this in real life. The great champ who's on top of his game and then the up and coming new challenger comes up and there's a knick in the champ's armor and he completely falls apart and never is the same because his aura of invincibility was broke and he mentally crashes.

Here's what I'm interested in SSJ2.

Gotenks/Buu 300
Gohan 450
Buutenks 600
Gokhan 675
Buuhan 750

I'm very interested in Gokhan right now.

Buutenks is 88% of Gokhan, right in line with Elder Kai's anime line about him. This is a huge area of contention we should explore. Steve Simmons translation is wildly different than Herms. Steve suggests a small, but superior gap. Herms suggests a monstrously superior gap. But Herms interpretation doesn't have to be at odds with Steve's if you look through the lens of Steve's interpretation.

Also, I like to have room for the anime people in this situation here. For me personally, manga wise, Base Vegetto is absolute trash. I have him like double SSJ Gotenks Post, which is really impressive for a Base Saiyan, but in light of where Anime Vegetto is, he's weak sauce.

So here's where I go with this.

Buutenks 600
Gokhan 675
Buuhan 750
Anime Base Vegetto 800

I think this is a perfect set right here.

 

[ahill1]

Recoome vs Vegeta too. That was apparently a 1.33x gap. Recoome was hitting him full force and all, but the battle dragged on a little with Vegeta having some, although useless, resistance moments, but Recoome was having fun and was more in the playing mentality ---- not that he wasn't fighting with his all, more like, to me, that he wasn't rushing to end it, he was like "come on, Vegeta, show me more!!" ... Bootenks seemed to have also gone in with the fun mentality. Bootenks wondered why was Gohan hiding right after Bootenks' first landed blow and stated that he wanted to have fun... It seems like a 1.33x advantage can allow the stronger fighter to, while using full power, fight without that "going immediately for the kill" mentality, all while having fun and provoking the opponent mid fight, before landing a devastating chi blast attack. I see similarities in those fights.

 

[SSJ2]

What is the anime quote on Gokhan? I feel like manga-wise 88% could be a bit tight. Old Kaioshin seemed pretty confident in Base Gokhan.

 

[Power Level Guy]

What is the anime quote on Gokhan? I feel like manga-wise 88% could be a bit tight. Old Kaioshin seemed pretty confident in Base Gokhan.

Something like...

Goku- But do I need SSJ
Elder Kai- You should just be enough not to.

88% is literally perfect tier for this line.

 

[SSJ2]

Maybe @ahill1 can get a translation of the raw manga and see if it backs that up.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Maybe @ahill1 can get a translation of the raw manga and see if it backs that up.

Yeah. But when in doubt, the anime translations are better than Herms imo. So long as they aren't translating literal anime filler.

I don't think this is a filler line here though.

 

[ahill1]

Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P1.3
Context: Goku asks if he should become a Super Saiyan before merging with the Potara, and Elder Kaioshin advices against it
Elder Kaioshin: “If you’re going to become a Super Saiyan, it’s better to do it after merging. But anyway, even without doing that, you’ll probably be plee~~eenty. The Potara’s power is just that amazing!”


According to Herms, it seems base Gokhan would be more than enough to beat Bootenks, but there was still a "probably". It reads to me as "even in base, you'll be probably more than enough". I could see that with a noticeable/moderate gap, instead of a huge one. The plee~~~enty indicates a big gap, like, more than enough, but the probably indicates that while the visible advantage wouldn't be tight, it would likely not be down-to-the-wire close imo.

I think a 88% gap works tbh.

 

[Power Level Guy]

@ahill1

Can you put it in a translator. Also can you do the line Perfect Cell tells to Trunks about bringing out more of his power right before he leaves after defeating Grade 3 Trunks

 

[ahill1]

Here is the Japanese literal translation :

Elder Kai : 超サイヤ人になるなら合体したあとでなったほうがええまそんなことせんでもじゅ~~~~~~~ぶんじゃろ」ポタラのパワーは それほどすごい!


Elder Kaioshin: "If you’re going to become a Super Saiyan, it’s better to do it after merging. But even without doing that, it will be mooo~~ore than enough. The Potara’s power is that incredible!"

So in the original, Elder Kai showed more confidence still than in Herms'. じゃろ (jarou) translates to “will be” or “should be”, still though it carries a tone of confident assumption rather than 100% sure. It’s more like saying “I’m pretty sure” or “it should definitely be” rather than outright declaring “it is guaranteed.”

But still, the Japanese version feels more confident than the Herms' wording, implying that base Gokhan would likely be very strong, with transformations as a backup if needed, but leaning closer to a large gap, but still not a guaranteed blowout.

The "probably" used by Herms more than likely slightly weaken the tone compared to the original Japanese, where Elder Kaioshin comes off as being more sure that the fusion’s base form would suffice—though still allowing for minor caution just in case.


How you you interpret it though?

@SSJ2
@Power Level Guy

 

[Power Level Guy]

Here is the Japanese literal translation :

Elder Kai : 超サイヤ人になるなら合体したあとでなったほうがええまそんなことせんでもじゅ~~~~~~~ぶんじゃろ」ポタラのパワーは それほどすごい!


Elder Kaioshin: "If you’re going to become a Super Saiyan, it’s better to do it after merging. But even without doing that, it will be mooo~~ore than enough. The Potara’s power is that incredible!"

So in the original, Elder Kai showed more confidence still than in Herms'. じゃろ (jarou) translates to “will be” or “should be”, still though it carries a tone of confident assumption rather than 100% sure. It’s more like saying “I’m pretty sure” or “it should definitely be” rather than outright declaring “it is guaranteed.”

But still, the Japanese version feels more confident than the Herms' wording, implying that base Gokhan would likely be very strong, with transformations as a backup if needed, but leaning closer to a large gap, but still not a guaranteed blowout.

The "probably" used by Herms more than likely slightly weaken the tone compared to the original Japanese, where Elder Kaioshin comes off as being more sure that the fusion’s base form would suffice—though still allowing for minor caution just in case.


How you you interpret it though?

Yeah, I'd agree. With that translation, someone who has Gokhan >> Buuhan wouldn't draw much opposition from me.

But as long as Gokhan can confidently beat Buutenks, like an 88% gap would assure. I think we are fine.

Most of the fandom is going to want to have Vegetto > Gokhan, so Gokhan does need to have some sort of a limit anyhow.

Yeah, I think the way we have it is just fine.

Gotenks 300
Gohan 450
Buutenks 600
Gokhan 675
Buuhan 750
Anime Vegetto 800

This is GOATed in my opinion.

I still want to investigate if I can make Gohan just a bit stronger. I'd love to have Gohan the equivalent of the idea of SSJ3 Goku going Super Saiyan. A full 50x boost over Goku just sounds super marketable to me.

And then Gokhan fits in better with his SSJ numbers. But it might be at the detrminet of Anime SSJ Vegetto's numbers, so that might be worth it. If somoene is going to get the ugly numbers, it should be Gokhan. Plus I don't have a placement for Anime Vegetto yet withg a boosted Gokhan.

Gotenks 300
Gohan 500
Buutenks 600
Gokhan 750
Buuhan 800
Anime Vegetto ?

This looks nice to. But it doesn't feel as GOATed as the other one.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Personally my focus is having base Vegetto a clean number over Goku, like 10x 20x etc.

I think the secret here is Gotenks’ post Rosat gains. He’s the only arbitrary factor, everything else is just clean multipliers.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Personally my focus is having base Vegetto a clean number over Goku, like 10x 20x etc.

I think the secret here is Gotenks’ post Rosat gains. He’s the only arbitrary factor, everything else is just clean multipliers.

Hmmm. I used to think like that, having clean fusion boosts sure would be nice. But with the introduction of Super, that seems less important to me.

It seems we've reached a consensus that fusion boosts are exponential. If that's the case, there's no need to find a perfect fusion boost number since it's always changing.

I think the importance here is showing an escalating fusion boost, Vegetto's boost should be more than Gotenks who's more than Kibito Kai and so on.

And you have to account for Base Gokhan as well.

 

[ahill1]

But as far as the manga goes, there's nothing showing that Vegetto was > hypothetical Gokhan.

 

[Power Level Guy]

But as far as the manga goes, there's nothing showing that Vegetto was > hypothetical Gokhan.

Yeah. That's where I officially stand.

I have Super Vegetto about double Buuhan. I don't think any more than that is necessary.