Future Trunks is closer to Piccolo than to Vegeta SSj

[ahill1]

The fight isn't really up for interpretation.

Except it is. The first hit was a blindside hit. The second hit is a weird one (Trunks was hit in the gut by Vegeta's backside area).

There're statements and feats showing the three SSJs are not too far off from each other.

If we went by the logic that being grouped together in a statements means they are in the same realm of power, than Tienshinhan is around Trunks and Piccolo's battle power:

Except Tenshinhan flat out stated Goku isn't much different than Vegeta and Trunks. Trunks was just stating what happened, nothing more. Poor example.

Krillen is referencing his Super Saiyan transformation as opposed to a degree of power that is say... on par with Goku.

Here Vegeta is referencing his power only as a SSJ too:

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P14.4
Vegeta: “They’re all just dicking around with me…! Easily surpassing the Super Saiyan, the greatest in the universe…!”

He was astounded that Vegeta was capable of fighting with an Android stronger than the one in his timeline.

Yea, Vegeta > Trunks... never denied that. This doesn't implied the difference is as big as you think though. Trunks probably underestimated Vegeta a little, just like he did with Goku three years ago.

 

[kriss-]

The fight isn't really up for interpretation.

Except it is. The first hit was a blindside hit. The second hit is a weird one (Trunks was hit in the gut by Vegeta's backside area).

There're statements and feats showing the three SSJs are not too far off from each other.
Trunks was knocked out in two hits, like Piccolo.

Vegeta lasted for a decent while.

The feats show the three SSJs are in different degrees of power.[/n]

If we went by the logic that being grouped together in a statements means they are in the same realm of power, than Tienshinhan is around Trunks and Piccolo's battle power:

Except Tenshinhan flat out stated Goku isn't much different than Vegeta and Trunks. Trunks was just stating what happened, nothing more. Poor example.
According to your logic, Tienshinhan was grouped with the Saiyans, so he's as powerful as they are.

Krillen is referencing his Super Saiyan transformation as opposed to a degree of power that is say... on par with Goku.

Here Vegeta is referencing his power only as a SSJ too:

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P14.4
Vegeta: “They’re all just dicking around with me…! Easily surpassing the Super Saiyan, the greatest in the universe…!”
Vegeta says Trunks is nothing. He's more reliable since he is the actual person fighting Android 18.

He was astounded that Vegeta was capable of fighting with an Android stronger than the one in his timeline.

Yea, Vegeta > Trunks... never denied that. This doesn't implied the difference is as big as you think though. Trunks probably underestimated Vegeta a little, just like he did with Goku three years ago.

It does.

The statements and feats surely suggest that Trunks is nowhere near the strength level of Goku and Vegeta. We have:

-Trunks being amazed by Vegeta.
-Trunks being knocked out in 2 hits, like Piccolo.
-Trunks not knowing that these versions of Androids are even stronger than the ones in his timeline.

Whereas you have:

-Tienshinhan grouping them together.

My argument is much more consistent with the events that are depicted.

 

[ahill1]

Trunks being amazed by Vegeta.

Yea, Vegeta > Trunks. Your point?

Trunks being knocked out in 2 hits, like Piccolo.

Again, the first hit was a blindside one, style Majin Vegeta vs Goku. The second was Trunks being hit in the gut by Vegeta's backside are. Getting tired of repeating myself.

Trunks not knowing that these versions of Androids are even stronger than the ones in his timeline.

And how does this help your point?

Tienshinhan grouping them together.

And Trunks keeping up with Vegeta when flying, making the latter call his son really annoying. Tenshinhan said the three (Goku, Vegeta and Trunks) are not much different than each other. It doesn't get simpler than this.

According to your logic, Tienshinhan was grouped with the Saiyans, so he's as powerful as they are.

Very different, because Tenshinhan stated Goku isn't much different than Vegeta or Trunks, clearly implying the three Saiyans aren't much different from each other. On the other hand, Trunks was merely saying what happened. Not comparable at all.

Vegeta says Trunks is nothing. He's more reliable since he is the actual person fighting Android 18.

I believe this was just a moment of Vegeta showing his arrogance, like when he said he should be considerably stronger than Kakaroto now he is a Super Saiya-jin.

 

[kriss-]

Trunks being amazed by Vegeta.

Yea, Vegeta > Trunks. Your point?

Trunks being knocked out in 2 hits, like Piccolo.

Again, the first hit was a blindside one, style Majin Vegeta vs Goku. The second was Trunks being hit in the gut by Vegeta's backside are. Getting tired of repeating myself.

Trunks not knowing that these versions of Androids are even stronger than the ones in his timeline.

And how does this help your point?

Tienshinhan grouping them together.

And Trunks keeping up with Vegeta when flying, making the latter call his son really annoying. Tenshinhan said the three (Goku, Vegeta and Trunks) are not much different than each other. It doesn't get simpler than this.

According to your logic, Tienshinhan was grouped with the Saiyans, so he's as powerful as they are.

Very different, because Tenshinhan stated Goku isn't much different than Vegeta or Trunks, clearly implying the three Saiyans aren't much different from each other. On the other hand, Trunks was merely saying what happened. Not comparable at all.

Vegeta says Trunks is nothing. He's more reliable since he is the actual person fighting Android 18.

I believe this was just a moment of Vegeta showing his arrogance, like when he said he should be considerably stronger than Kakaroto now he is a Super Saiya-jin.

Android 17 was choking out Tienshinhan, it's obvious that he was intentionally holding back as a means to not kill any of the Z-Fighters. Therefore, you cannot use his attack on Trunks as evidence to call it a sneak attack of sorts, because it falls under the disposition of suppression. Further-more, Vegeta recovered from the exact same attack that knocked out Trunks. Regardless of how you personally feel about "Oh I wouldn't want to be him in that situation," the fact remains that Vegeta recovered and Trunks did not. This is blatant proof that Trunks is wholly inferior to Vegeta.

Trunks was amazed that Vegeta was capable of fighting a battle power that he estimated to be as powerful as the Future Androids, little did he know that Vegeta was actually fighting a battle power a whole lot greater, which makes the gap between the two even larger than originally estimated to be. Additionally, Vegeta even states that Trunks is not even considered to be effective against Android 18 or even useful for that matter. He is the actual fighter participating in the fight, so his word holds more authority than a spectator.

Having debunked Tienshinhans grouping Trunks alongside Goku and Vegeta and providing you with actual feats that support the contrary, I think it's entirely evident that Trunks is nowhere near the likes of Goku and Vegeta.

Your analysis is inconsistent with the feats that we are shown.

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

Regarding the feats you listed in the first post:
you are forgetting Trunks got smashed in the back by 17, who's much more powerful than 18.
That should have weakened him considerably enough for 18 to later knock him by tossing Vegeta at him, regardless of how he compares to Vegeta.

 

[ahill1]

Android 17 was choking out Tienshinhan, it's obvious that he was intentionally holding back as a means to not kill any of the Z-Fighters.

There are many examples of a extremely weaker fighter not dying when they should do. Like Kuririn not having his head exploded by Perfect Cell's kick, despite this kick being enough for him to realize Vegeta was fucked. Or Gohan (power level of 1) not being wrecked after being hit by Raditz, which though very weakened I doubt was any lower than Goku's and Piccolo's power levels.

Besides, he could be holding back against Tenshinhan, but it doesn't prove he held back against Trunks... Very weak point.

Therefore, you cannot use his attack on Trunks as evidence to call it a sneak attack of sorts, because it falls under the disposition of suppression.

The attack was still strong enough to knock Trunks down for a moment, therefore being many times stronger than Tenshinhan. It doesn't work.

Further-more, Vegeta recovered from the exact same attack that knocked out Trunks.

Again, Trunks was hit in the gut by Vegeta's backsaide area. Do you even list to what other peoples say?

Trunks was amazed that Vegeta was capable of fighting a battle power that he estimated to be as powerful as the Future Androids, little did he know that Vegeta was actually fighting a battle power a whole lot greater,

Except Vegeta was actually never = 18, who calls him weak and nothing special. If you were shown only this panels, you'd say #17 was dominating Piccolo too:

Spoiler

Spoiler

Vegeta even states that Trunks is not even considered to be effective against Android 18 or even useful for that matter.

Vegeta himself wasn't useful against #18. Like I said, I think this is only one of the moments of Vegeta showing his arrogance, like when he said he should be considerably stronger than Goku now he is a Super Saiyan without even knowing Goku's full power. Later, we are told the three SSJs are not much different from each other.

Having debunked Tienshinhans grouping Trunks alongside Goku and Vegeta and providing you with actual feats that support the contrary

You've debunked nothing. You're only showing your interpretations and using feats that are not absolute and ideed up for interpretation. You tell like you learn to respect other opinions, but here are you again, acting like your views are the only plausible and possible.

Your analysis is inconsistent with the feats that we are shown.

Feats that, once again, are not absolute and up for interpretation. You cannot even "debunk" my views of the fight. You only came with poor excusings like "#17 was holding back a shit ton of power, since he didn't kill Tenshinhan" even though this power was able to basically one-shot Piccolo with a punch in the gut.

 

[kriss-]

Android 17 was choking out Tienshinhan, it's obvious that he was intentionally holding back as a means to not kill any of the Z-Fighters.

There are many examples of a extremely weaker fighter not dying when they should do. Like Kuririn not having his head exploded by Perfect Cell's kick, despite this kick being enough for him to realize Vegeta was fucked. Or Gohan (power level of 1) not being wrecked after being hit by Raditz, which though very weakened I doubt was any lower than Goku's and Piccolo's power levels.

Besides, he could be holding back against Tenshinhan, but it doesn't prove he held back against Trunks... Very weak point.

]The point remains that Android 17 intentionally held back for Tienshinhan, Piccolo and Trunks, with the intent of not killing them.

This discredits your theory that Trunks suffered more because he was hit from behind.

Therefore, you cannot use his attack on Trunks as evidence to call it a sneak attack of sorts, because it falls under the disposition of suppression.

The attack was still strong enough to knock Trunks down for a moment, therefore being many times stronger than Tenshinhan. It doesn't work.

Android 17 was holding back.

Further-more, Vegeta recovered from the exact same attack that knocked out Trunks.

Again, Trunks was hit in the gut by Vegeta's backsaide area. Do you even list to what other peoples say?

Trying to make such a distinction is a reach.

Trunks was amazed that Vegeta was capable of fighting a battle power that he estimated to be as powerful as the Future Androids, little did he know that Vegeta was actually fighting a battle power a whole lot greater,

Except Vegeta was actually never = 18, who calls him weak and nothing special. If you were shown only this panels, you'd say #17 was dominating Piccolo too:[/quote]

He didn't have to be considered equal, he was at least capable of holding his own. Trunks wasn't. Not in his timeline or the present one.

Vegeta himself wasn't useful against #18. Like I said, I think this is only one of the moments of Vegeta showing his arrogance, like when he said he should be considerably stronger than Goku now he is a Super Saiyan without even knowing Goku's full power. Later, we are told the three SSJs are not much different from each other.

Vegeta at least put up some resistance against a battle power that far surpassed Trunks's imagination. This implies a huge difference between their power.

Having debunked Tienshinhans grouping Trunks alongside Goku and Vegeta and providing you with actual feats that support the contrary

You've debunked nothing. You're only showing your interpretations and using feats that are not absolute and ideed up for interpretation. You tell like you learn to respect other opinions, but here are you again, acting like your views are the only plausible and possible.

The feats are not up for interpretation when they are backed by Vegeta's statement of Trunks being considered trash an ineffective against the Androids.

One little line -that was discredited earlier by me, from Tienshinhan doesn't mean they are in the same realm of power.

Your analysis is inconsistent with the feats that we are shown.

Feats that, once again, are not absolute and up for interpretation. You cannot even "debunk" my views of the fight. You only came with poor excusings like "#17 was holding back a shit ton of power, since he didn't kill Tenshinhan" even though this power was able to basically one-shot Piccolo with a punch in the gut.

They are absolute and are not up for interpretation. It is very clear what happened.

Me
-Vegeta is capable of battling someone that surpasses what Trunks believes he's capable of.
-Vegeta was thrown into Trunks, Trunks was knocked out, Vegeta wasn't.
-Vegeta says Trunks is useless against the Andriods.

You
-Tienshinhan groups them together.

But wait, Future Trunks grouped Tienshinhan together with himself and his Vegeta, does that mean he's equal to them? Nope.

Seriously, why are you even arguing at this point?

 

[ahill1]

The point remains that Android 17 intentionally held back for Tienshinhan, Piccolo and Trunks, with the intent of not killing them.

This discredits your theory that Trunks suffered more because he was hit from behind.

This level was still able to wreck Piccolo. Now you are saying #17 held back to a level far stronger than Piccolo in order to not kill Tensinhan? lol. An off guard hit was shown through the series to be pretty effective, like Majin Vegeta knocking down Goku.

Android 17 was holding back.

Again, this "hold back" level was still far stronger than Piccolo.

Trying to make such a distinction is a reach.

Isn't reach... Trunks was hit in the gut by Vegeta backside area. Trunks came off worse than Vegeta.

The feats are not up for interpretation when they are backed by Vegeta's statement of Trunks being considered trash an ineffective against the Androids.

Again, Vegeta was most likely going for arrogance, since he saw Trunks keeping up with him while flying just fine.

Besides, Vegeta said that now he's a Super Saiyan, he should be several levels above Goku. Do you have Vegeta much stronger than Kakarot?


Chapter: 348 (DBZ 154), P5.1
Context: after Trunks says they have to wait for Goku to get better before taking the androids on
Vegeta: “There’s no need for us to wait for Kakarot! Maybe you can’t tell, but I’ve become a Super Saiyan. As long as we’re both Super Saiyans, I the prince will definitely be several levels stronger than a guy like him…!”

One little line -that was discredited earlier by me, from Tienshinhan doesn't mean they are in the same realm of power.

How he doesn't mean it? He literally said Goku should not be much different from Vegeta and Trunks, implying the three SSJs are not much different from each other.

Vegeta is capable of battling someone that surpasses what Trunks believes he's capable of.

Again, Vegeta was never =18. Where do you have Imperfect Cell? He should be stronger than Vegeta and yet was easily handled by someone at #18's level. #18 should be able to do the same with Vegeta.

Vegeta was thrown into Trunks, Trunks was knocked out, Vegeta wasn't.

Again, Trunks was hit in the gut by Vegeta's backside area. Trunks came off worse than Vegeta.

-Vegeta says Trunks is useless against the Andriods.

Vegeta also said now he's a Super Saiyan he should be several levels stronger than Kakarot. I see this as being one of the moments of him showing his arrogance by being the prince of the Saiyans.

But wait, Future Trunks grouped Tienshinhan together with himself and his Vegeta, does that mean he's equal to them? Nope.

I already explained that. Trunks was merely saying what happened, while Tenshinhan pretty much said the three SSJs are not much different from each other.

 

[kriss-]

I don't have time for this right now, I'll reply on Monday.