Gap between Trunks and 100% Mecha Freeza

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Between the inconsistency of one shot gaps, Trunks being compared to Namek Goku and the fact Trunks nor Freeza were at 100%, I find it a bit hard to tell how strong Trunks is.

 

[SSJ2]

Who says that Trunks wasn't at 100%? Trunks was confident in being able to beat both Freeza and Cold "in seconds" while both were at full power. The gap should reflect that.

 

[Animelover5487]

Now that I think about it though. Did Trunks know Freeza's full power? In his timeline, Goku killed Freeza and his father before Trunks was born so it seems unlikely Trunks would be familiar with how powerful Freeza was. If not, all that means is that he is much stronger than 50% (or whatever level Freeza was using) Freeza and Cold.

Something tells me Trunks was meant to be around Namek Goku level too. I am starting to believe the 120 mil vs 150 mil the guidebook gap between Goku and Freeza on Namek and believe Freeza was still weaker as a cyborg. Super Saiyan is always treated as being a step above Freeza, with the exception of Kid Future Trunks.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

From both a story and character perspective, there's no reason to believe the result would be any different had Freeza used 100%. Goku heavily implies Trunks would be able to oneshot Freeza in general when commenting on Trunks' description of the Artificial Humans and Trunks wouldn't have such confidence without some sort of benchmark to measure Freeza from, with it being out of character that Future Goku would've just killed a weaker Freeza as Trunks did.

Between the inconsistency of one shot gaps,

Gaps in general were never consistent throughout the series, not to mention being purely speculation after scouters were removed as a plot device.

Trunks being compared to Namek Goku

He was only said to have the same type of Ki as Namek Goku, not the same level.

 

[Animelover5487]

He was only said to have the same type of Ki as Namek Goku, not the same level.

Why would he have the same type of ki as Goku though? Him and Goku aren't even related and ki isn't usually referred to like that unless there is a connection between the ki users, such as Cell having the DNA of several people or Black having a similar ki to Zamasu due to having his soul in Goku's body.

Outside of instances like those ki comparison is usually power related.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

They're both Super Saiyans. That's more than enough reason for them to have similar Ki signatures when it's been made apparent Ki can display certain personality traits (eg. the many references to evil Ki) and it's apparent the SSJ state has many changes (eg. Kaio noting how the desire to fight and his aggression to avenge Kuririn overcame any pragmatism in Goku handling Freeza). That, and Herms' translation makes it pretty evident it's not talking about just the same amount of Ki.

Chapter: 331 (DBZ 137), P13.3
Gohan: “It’s fa-father!!! It’s the same ki as father back then!!”
Note: Gohan says it’s the ‘same ki’ (onaji ki), rather than the ‘same amount of ki’ (onaji gurai no ki).

Combine this with the multiple character statements within the manga (Goku not attributing Trunks oneshotting Freeza specifically to him being suppressed, Freeza having confidence in beating Goku on his own, etc.) and all evidence points to them having the same type of Ki rather than the same amount.

 

[Animelover5487]

They're both Super Saiyans. That's more than enough reason for them to have similar Ki signatures

There is nothing that says that all Super Saiyans have the same ki signature.

[[quote:when it's been made apparent Ki can display certain personality traits (eg. the many references to evil Ki) and it's apparent the SSJ state has many changes (eg. Kaio noting how the desire to fight and his aggression to avenge Kuririn overcame any pragmatism in Goku handling Freeza).]]

If anything, that would make their ki more differential. Like you said Goku was fueled by anger and aggression when Gohan saw him transform, Trunks on the other hand was calm and composed when he transformed.

[[quote:Goku not attributing Trunks oneshotting Freeza specifically to him being suppressed,]]

Goku also initially thought it was possible Vegeta or Piccolo could have killed Freeza. Goku knows Freeza didn't have control over his full power so he could have figured Trunks didn't give him the chance to use his full power and Goku wasn't there so he wouldn't know that Trunks necessarily one shotted Freeza just defeated him easily, like Vegeta vs Dodoria.


[[quote:Freeza having confidence in beating Goku on his own,]]

Well Freeza couldn't sense ki and given how unskilled he is in combat his claim doesn't really hold any merit, especially since even then he seemed uncertain about it.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Who says that Trunks wasn't at 100%? Trunks was confident in being able to beat both Freeza and Cold "in seconds" while both were at full power. The gap should reflect that.

Chapter: 334 (DBZ 140), P13.3-5
Context: after Trunks and Goku fight
Trunks: “As expected, the rumors were true. No, you’re even greater…This was the sword that cut even Freeza…”
Goku: “You weren’t serious, after all.”

Trunks compares his perfomance vs Goku to the one vs Trunks. Goku then proceeds to say it wasn’t his best.

I also don’t see why Trunks would go 100% if Freeza is supposed to be fodder to him. Also explains how he could be mistaken with Goku.

From both a story and character perspective, there's no reason to believe the result would be any different had Freeza used 100%. Goku heavily implies Trunks would be able to oneshot Freeza in general when commenting on Trunks' description of the Artificial Humans and Trunks wouldn't have such confidence without some sort of benchmark to measure Freeza from, with it being out of character that Future Goku would've just killed a weaker Freeza as Trunks did.

We’re not discussing whether or not Trunks could one shot Freeza. This much is clear. The thing is, how strong does that make Trunks? This is the power levels subforum, after all. If Freeza is a 150, can Trunks still stomp him while being a 156, a là Vegeta stomping Zarbon with a 4% gap?

Gaps in general were never consistent throughout the series, not to mention being purely speculation after scouters were removed as a plot device.

This is The Laboratory, a place to do experiments, something that involves speculation

He was only said to have the same type of Ki as Namek Goku, not the same level.

The two aren’t mutually exclusive. Goku says Nameks have Ki similar to Piccolo’s, rather than flat out the same.

 

[SSJ2]

Trunks compares his perfomance vs Goku to the one vs Trunks. Goku then proceeds to say it wasn’t his best.

I also don’t see why Trunks would go 100% if Freeza is supposed to be fodder to him. Also explains how he could be mistaken with Goku.

The difference is that we have no reason to believe that Trunks wasn't serious against Freeza. Nothing about his actions indicated that he was holding back. He came to eliminate Freeza and Cold and did so hastily.

Why wouldn't he go 100%? Trunks isn't the sort of idiot who leaves anything on the table when fighting. His experiences in his own world have made him a very serious man who hated playing around. We see this throughout the Android arc. To suggest he was holding back goes directly against his character.

He was mistaken for Goku because the Super Saiyan ki signature was the same. It's stated in the strength checker.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The difference is that we have no reason to believe that Trunks wasn't serious against Freeza. Nothing about his actions indicated that he was holding back. He came to eliminate Freeza and Cold and did so hastily.

Why wouldn't he go 100%? Trunks isn't the sort of idiot who leaves anything on the table when fighting. His experiences in his own world have made him a very serious man who hated playing around. We see this throughout the Android arc. To suggest he was holding back goes directly against his character.

He was mistaken for Goku because the Super Saiyan ki signature was the same. It's stated in the strength checker.

I mean, asking two foes of strength unknown to not hold back on him is already a pretty risky gamble. There's no need for him to be at full power in the first place if he's confident their power is nothing to his.

Same Ki means same Ki. The tidbit is just Herms' interpretation.

So how strong even is Trunks then? We have nothing besides probably being stronger than Freeza by a unknown amount. How important was the sword? Trunks puts a lot of emphasis on it when talking to Goku.

 

[SSJ2]

It's not an interpretation lmao. It's the translation of the dialogue. He literally states that "same amount of ki" would have had different wording.

The sword is an extension of Trunks. The sword means nothing if Trunks doesn't have the power to use it. The segment against King Cold made it painfully obvious that the sword wasn't the reason for his success.

Trunks is strong enough to beat both Freeza and Cold together. His confidence to bring down both of them in seconds is not contradicted, so quite frankly, going against that notion is nonsensical.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

It's not an interpretation lmao. It's the translation of the dialogue. He literally states that "same amount of ki" would have had different wording.

The sword is an extension of Trunks. The sword means nothing if Trunks doesn't have the power to use it. The segment against King Cold made it painfully obvious that the sword wasn't the reason for his success.

Trunks is strong enough to beat both Freeza and Cold together. His confidence to bring down both of them in seconds is not contradicted, so quite frankly, going against that notion is nonsensical.

Wouldn't Gohan say something else if Trunks were much stronger than before though? He was pretty taken aback when he sensed Goku's Ki growing as he turned SSJ3 and even doubted it could be him, even though it was his signature. "Same Ki" should mean both type and power, not just type. Goku says he'll look for Ki's similar to Piccolo's when he goes look for New Namek, rather than Ki's equals to his.

That doesn't really matter. Of course base Trunks couldn't slice Freeza. But what about SSJ Trunks with his bare hands vs FP Freeza? Going by what happened to Cold, suppressed Freeza would still be two shot fodder. Same would happen to 100% Freeza right?

Nobody's questioning Trunks' chances SSJ2. This is the power levels section, I just want to see some gaps. Vegeta can't take Zarbon and Dodoria at once, so Trunks' advantage over Freeza and Cold gotta be bigger than that right? How big? Ginyu estimated Goku to be a 60k based on Jeice saying he clobbered him and Burta at once. Does that mean it's a similarly sized gap?

 

[SSJ2]

If Trunks was stronger than who? Namek Goku? Maybe Gohan can't even tell. Piccolo/Gohan/Krillin weren't able to tell who was stronger between Base Goku and Freeza because they were in a different dimension. Super Saiyan is unbelievably more powerful than that. This is why the amount of ki is not Gohan's focus. Gohan remembers the feeling Super Saiyan gave off, not the exact amount of ki that Goku had.

What do you mean it doesn't matter? Toriyama spells it out for you as clearly as possible. Trunks kills Freeza with ease and Cold muses that it must be due to the sword. Trunks surrenders the sword to show the reader that it wasn't the reason why he beat Freeza. It's crystal clear man. Might it give him a greater ability to slice through something? Maybe. The context of the story shows us this is irrelevant when Goku was able to repel the sword by imbuing his finger with ki. The sword is Trunks' weapon of choice but he doesn't need it to replicate the same feats.

You said you had trouble determining Trunks' strength and I gave you my assessment. I don't really care about the exact gap. There's nothing to compare it to because Cold is so much weaker than Freeza. Trunks doesn't need to be all that far ahead of the Vegeta vs Dodoria gap to make it work. Cold is one shot fodder and doesn't really matter. Trunks knew he'd be able to take both of them at full power. Something between Vegeta/Dodoria and Goku/Ginyus works fine.

 

[ahill1]

Herms only noticed that Gohan didn't say the "same amount of chi". He didn't say the statement should be interpreted as "the same TYPE of chi" either. The statement remains open, with the "same chi" possibly indicating everything that follows the word same -- type and amount.

I don't necessarily think Trunks ~ Namek Goku, but the idea isn't devoid of its merit, as Gohan's statement is quite open to this interpretation. If he 100% meant the same type of chi, then well, he didn't SAY that. He said "same chi".

 

[Fantastische Hure]

if the same kind of ki was meant then i def. think trunks can be higher than freeza-saga goku, because if thinking in-universe wot seems more likely (if i can ask)? goku coming-back or there some-how being another character who can transform to the legendary warrior told of in legends? if i can ask

 

[SSJ2]

Herms only noticed that Gohan didn't say the "same amount of chi". He didn't say the statement should be interpreted as "the same TYPE of chi" either. The statement remains open, with the "same chi" possibly indicating everything that follows the word same -- type and amount.

I don't necessarily think Trunks ~ Namek Goku, but the idea isn't devoid of its merit, as Gohan's statement is quite open to this interpretation. If he 100% meant the same type of chi, then well, he didn't SAY that. He said "same chi".

The problem is the story itself makes it clear that Trunks isn't equal to Namek Goku based on feats and implications, so that interpretation can be eliminated. Of you can find me an example in the manga where "same ki" is used as a power statement then I'll reconsider. Power statements are far more clear in the manga.

 

[ahill1]

The problem is the story itself makes it clear that Trunks isn't equal to Namek Goku based on feats and implications, so that interpretation can be eliminated. Of you can find me an example in the manga where "same ki" is used as a power statement then I'll reconsider. Power statements are far more clear in the manga.

If it's the "same" only in regard to "type", then that isn't really "same". Same is an all encompassing thing unless stated otherwise.

 

[SSJ2]

If it's the "same" only in regard to "type", then that isn't really "same". Same is an all encompassing thing unless stated otherwise.

If you go by the literal definition of the word then sure. English isn't so cut and dry, and neither is Japanese for that matter. Consider the following example. Imagine two identical shirts from a clothing brand that come in different colours. You could say, "that's the same shirt that dad has!" while referring to the shirt, but the colours aren't the same. This could be the same, and when you weigh the evidence within the story (which you agree with), it seems unlikely that same applies to both aspects of the ki. This use of same is quite common in English.

The very fact that Herms made note of the fact that it wasn't referring to the amount is quite telling. More often than not it is specified when the size of the ki is being referred to, in this case it wasn't.

 

[ahill1]

If you go by the literal definition of the word then sure. English isn't so cut and dry, and neither is Japanese for that matter. Consider the following example. Imagine two identical shirts from a clothing brand that come in different colours. You could say, "that's the same shirt that dad has!" while referring to the shirt, but the colours aren't the same. This could be the same, and when you weigh the evidence within the story (which you agree with), it seems unlikely that same applies to both aspects of the ki. This use of same is quite common in English.

The very fact that Herms made note of the fact that it wasn't referring to the amount is quite telling. More often than not it is specified when the size of the ki is being referred to, in this case it wasn't.

Fair enough.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

if the same kind of ki was meant then i def. think trunks can be higher than freeza-saga goku, because if thinking in-universe wot seems more likely (if i can ask)? goku coming-back or there some-how being another character who can transform to the legendary warrior told of in legends? if i can ask

Well later in the series Gohan sensed Goku's power rising when he went SSJ3 and still said that couldn't be him. I think the situations are a bit different though since one is Goku going multiple times stronger in a instant and the other is Goku getting somewhat stronger after a year away.

If you go by the literal definition of the word then sure. English isn't so cut and dry, and neither is Japanese for that matter. Consider the following example. Imagine two identical shirts from a clothing brand that come in different colours. You could say, "that's the same shirt that dad has!" while referring to the shirt, but the colours aren't the same. This could be the same, and when you weigh the evidence within the story (which you agree with), it seems unlikely that same applies to both aspects of the ki. This use of same is quite common in English.

The very fact that Herms made note of the fact that it wasn't referring to the amount is quite telling. More often than not it is specified when the size of the ki is being referred to, in this case it wasn't.

Yup, the point of the statement is that Gohan and co. think that's Goku, not necessarily a power statement. It could be referring to power, after all it's in the Strength Checker, but not necessarily.