Gap between Trunks and 100% Mecha Freeza

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The anime has Kaio saying Trunks is perhaps stronger than Goku, btw.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

A couple of my folks on Neo are suggesting the gap between Trunks and Freeza is quite large. The future twins at less than half power could take on other SSJs like Gohan and Vegeta. Some people think suppressed 17 must be stronger than Freeza since he's the new villain, but that's bs.

If we're taking Freeza being 1-2 hit material for Trunks, I think it's gotta be a large gap regardless. Kui and Dodoria weren't even trying to fight back, so Vegeta erasing them in one blast isn't really accurate to the gap.

And then there's Goku. Trunks says he's better than the rumours and all, but then Goku says it's only because Goku was holding back.

Made some numbers to test everything.

Spoiler: From Organic Freeza to Yardrat Goku

SSJ Goku (Namek): 150

Freeza: 144
~ Cyborg: 160

Future Vegeta (Freeza's death): 3.2
~ Battle against the Androids: 4
~ SSJ: 200

Future Gohan: 4.5
~ SSJ: 250
~ Post training: 360

Future 17 (40%): 300
~ 100%: 750

SSJ Future Trunks: 400

SSJ Goku: 200 - 500 (According to Daizenshuu 6, Vegeta was as strong as Goku when he died)

From both a story and character perspective, there's no reason to believe the result would be any different had Freeza used 100%. Goku heavily implies Trunks would be able to oneshot Freeza in general when commenting on Trunks' description of the Artificial Humans and Trunks wouldn't have such confidence without some sort of benchmark to measure Freeza from, with it being out of character that Future Goku would've just killed a weaker Freeza as Trunks did.

From both a story and character perspective, Trunks one shotting Freeza is the most impressive feat in the show. Even more so than Vegeta and Piccolo beating the Androids.

At face value, all that's being said is Trunks > suppressed Freeza. I think it falls into cherrypicking to say the subtext implies Trunks > 100% Freeza but not Trunks > 100% Freeza > Androids. I mean, the very reason this feat keeps being brought up is because it's so impressive.

 

[SSJ2]

The future twins at less than half power could take on other SSJs like and Vegeta.

Except there's not one thing that implies this. We don't even know if Vegeta was Super Saiyan, and we have no clue what level of power the Androids used against the Z Senshi initially.

 

[ahill1]

I don't think #17 (less than half) needs to be stronger than Mecha Freeza. Ok, Gohan seemed unsure of his chances against less than half #17 and #18, while Trunks thought he'd bring Freeza down in seconds, but we have to remember Gohan is somewhat weaker than Trunks and that he's fighting TWO androids with infinite stamina. That could explain their difference in mentality.

Mecha Freeza : 160,000,000
Less than half mirai #17 : 160,000,000
Future Gohan SSJ (1 arm) : 180,000,000
Mirai Trunks SSJ : 200,000,000

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Except there's not one thing that implies this. We don't even know if Vegeta was Super Saiyan, and we have no clue what level of power the Androids used against the Z Senshi initially.

I meant to say Gohan. Could go either way about Vegeta though.

 

[SSJ2]

I meant to say Gohan. Could go either way about Vegeta though.

How strong do you have 2 arms Gohan? I've got him around Freeza's level personally.

 

[Papasmurf]

How strong do you have 2 arms Gohan? I've got him around Freeza's level personally.

Do you think Future Vegeta became SSJ like in the TV special, or do you think he was just a base Saiyan? Because if Future Vegeta was SSJ, he'd have to be miserably weak for 2 arms Future Gohan to presumably think he had a better chance than him.

 

[SSJ2]

Even if he was, I can see it. Vegeta likely didn’t train as hard given that nobody was aware of the Androids in the future. Plus with Galu dying I can see him losing his motivation even if he had become a Super Saiyan. It’s plausible that he wasn’t all that far ahead of his level seen when Mecha Freeza came to earth.

Gohan might’ve misjudged things anyway. He wasn’t able to tell that Trunks had a much larger ki than Namek SSJ Goku after all.

 

[Papasmurf]

Do you think his frustration at being unable to best Galu unlocked his SSJ form then? Because in the main timeline he explained that he trained himself to the limit and then transformed out of self-anger at being unable to surpass Kakarotto.

I also think Gohan probably had a decent idea of Vegeta's power when even Bulma of all people could somehow tell that SSJ Trunks (late teens) was >= one arm Future Gohan, and he must've felt Vegeta and the others' Ki as they were being slaughtered. Future Trunks hadn't begun to fight seriously when Gohan made that statement in the Mecha Freeza segment either.

 

[SSJ2]

Possibly.. Maybe he even unlocked it after Galu died. Was it stated when Galu died in the future? If it wasn’t long after he returned from Namek then I can definitely see Vegeta unlocking it out of rage. He’s probably stop training after that as his life mission of beating Galu had ended.

Maybe so. I’m still fine with Vegeta being that weak.

 

[Papasmurf]

Possibly.. Maybe he even unlocked it after Galu died. Was it stated when Galu died in the future?

Iirc Trunks didn't specify when it was, he just said Galu would contract a deadly virus soon and die. In the anime it was after Future Trunks was born, so likely at least a year and a half after Freeza's death.

 

[ahill1]

I also do have [mecha freeza arc] Vegeta at noticeably ahead Goku's base power vs Freeza, so if Vegeta became a SSj in the future and 2 arms Gohan is logically > him, we'd be looking at pretty big gaps here.

 

[SSJ2]

I also do have [mecha freeza arc] Vegeta at noticeably ahead Goku's base power vs Freeza, so if Vegeta became a SSj in the future and 2 arms Gohan is logically > him, we'd be looking at pretty big gaps here.

Is this because you're following the Daizenshuu numbers?

 

[SSJ2]

Spoiler

Namek:
Vegeta
-480,000
--Zenkai: 2,900,000

Son Goku
-Initial: 3,600,000
--Full Power: 5,000,000
---Kaioken x10: 50,000,000
----Kaioken x20: 100,000,000
~Kaioken x20 Kamehameha: 110,000,000
-----Super Saiyan: 250,000,000

Mecha Freeza:

Vegeta
-4,250,000

Son Goku
-Base: 7,000,000
--Super Saiyan: 350,000,000

The Future

Future Trunks
-Base: 4,400,000
--Super Saiyan: 220,000,000

Future Gohan
-Two Arms Base: 4,800,000
--Super Saiyan: 240,000,000
---One Arm Base: 5,800,000
----Super Saiyan: 290,000,000

Future 17
-Less Than Half: 280,000,000
-Full Power: 630,000,000

Future 18
-Less Than Half: 260,000,000
--Full Power: 575,000,000

This is what I've got. I think it works if you assume that Goku died fairly early into the 3 year gap. I can see how you'd come to a different conclusion. It wouldn't hurt for me to lower two arms Gohan tho.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

How strong do you have 2 arms Gohan? I've got him around Freeza's level personally.

Same, a bit weaker than Freeza. We don’t know how exactly he lost his arm so he might not be that much weaker than <50% 17.

Do you think Future Vegeta became SSJ like in the TV special, or do you think he was just a base Saiyan? Because if Future Vegeta was SSJ, he'd have to be miserably weak for 2 arms Future Gohan to presumably think he had a better chance than him.

Unless we take the special into account, it’s possible the androids just cornered him or something. Or Vegeta put up a fight against the suppressed twins. We don’t really know.

Possibly.. Maybe he even unlocked it after Galu died. Was it stated when Galu died in the future? If it wasn’t long after he returned from Namek then I can definitely see Vegeta unlocking it out of rage. He’s probably stop training after that as his life mission of beating Galu had ended.

Maybe so. I’m still fine with Vegeta being that weak.

Daizenshuu’s timeline chart says Goku died on the same year as Freeza, so I think it was soon after he came back in the manga. Thus why Trunks arrives so early.

---

Did a bit of polishing on those numbers I posted. This looks better for the bloated approach:

Spoiler: Experiment

Vegeta: 2,400
~ Planet Buster: 2,700

Goku: 2,700
~ Serious: 3,000
~ Kaio-Ken x10: 30,000
~ Kaio-Ken x20: 60,000
~ SSJ: 150,000

Freeza: 2,400
~ Warming up: 2,
~ No hands: 3,240
~ 40%: 72,000
~ 100%: 144,000

Mecha Freeza: 160,000
King Cold: 120,000

SSJ Goku (Post Yardrat): 300,000

Vegeta: 3,200
~ Future androids fight: 3,600
~ SSJ: 180,000

Gohan (2 arms): 4,000
~ SSJ: 200,000

Future 17 (36%): 216,000
~ 100%: 600,000

Future 18: 500,000

Gohan (1 arm): 4,800
~ SSJ: 240,000

Trunks: 5,400
~ SSJ: 270,000

 

[SSJ2]

Feels excessive to have Trunks that much higher than Freeza. Cold should barely factor into the equation when Trunks was confident in beating both in seconds.

 

[ahill1]

I've a 1.25x gap, honestly. Feel that's enough.

 

[SSJ2]

That's what I have. Cold is fodder to Trunks as we saw. Trunks only needs to be strong enough to one shot Freeza.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Feels excessive to have Trunks that much higher than Freeza. Cold should barely factor into the equation when Trunks was confident in beating both in seconds.

Obviously this gap comes from fitting Vegeta and Gohan in the middle. Other than that though Trunks only needs to be like, 20% stronger than Freeza.

I wouldn’t call Cold a non factor when Freeza clearly expected him to change the tides against Goku.

 

[SSJ2]

At best he could be a distraction while getting one shotted. Keep in mind that Freeza was already expecting to be above Goku's level himself. Cold is a non factor against someone much stronger than Namek Goku.