Gohan Retcon

[FeatsofPower]

I think Toriyama retconned Gohan into being a Super Saiyan at the Budokai. Even down to the Buu meter.

Goku says for Gohan to be like he was against Cell, because Gohan never transformed at the Budokai, it makes sense for Goku to say that then.

Everything makes sense if Gohan was never a SSJ2, it fits pretty much everything.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Then why is Dabra compared to Cell? I don’t see the point of the comparison if Goku is talking about suppressed Cell. Might as well say Trunks is compared to suppressed Mecha Freeza whenever the one shot statement is brought up.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Then why is Dabra compared to Cell? I don’t see the point of the comparison if Goku is talking about suppressed Cell. Might as well say Trunks is compared to suppressed Mecha Freeza whenever the one shot statement is brought up.

Suppressed Cell was still a frightening opponent 7 yrs back.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Then why is Dabra compared to Cell? I don’t see the point of the comparison if Goku is talking about suppressed Cell. Might as well say Trunks is compared to suppressed Mecha Freeza whenever the one shot statement is brought up.

Freeza was suppressed against Trunks, yet no one ever differentiates his power or his full power. It's happened before.

 

[Goku9001]

Then why is Dabra compared to Cell? I don’t see the point of the comparison if Goku is talking about suppressed Cell. Might as well say Trunks is compared to suppressed Mecha Freeza whenever the one shot statement is brought up.

This is a fair point.

I think Toriyama definitely wanted Dabura to be comparable to Cell but either changed his mind or didn't think it was that big of a deal when he decided to have Gohan fight him as a Super Saiyan. I don't ever think the intention was to compare him to a Suppressed Cell. That's an in-universe explanation that people made up to try to make sense of things.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

This is a fair point.

I think Toriyama definitely wanted Dabura to be comparable to Cell but either changed his mind or didn't think it was that big of a deal when he decided to have Gohan fight him as a Super Saiyan. I don't ever think the intention was to compare him to a Suppressed Cell. That's an in-universe explanation that people made up to try to make sense of things.

Up to Dabra seeing SSJ Goku vs Yakon it looks like Dabra was supposed to be a big deal.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Suppressed Freeza is used as the standard bearer for Freeza's power throughout the Androids Saga.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

This is a fair point.

I think Toriyama definitely wanted Dabura to be comparable to Cell but either changed his mind or didn't think it was that big of a deal when he decided to have Gohan fight him as a Super Saiyan. I don't ever think the intention was to compare him to a Suppressed Cell. That's an in-universe explanation that people made up to try to make sense of things.

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
Goku: “Magic, huh? [Dabra]’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”

Then, why was this comment added not so much afterwards? I don't think that if the intention of Toriyama would be to completely discard Goku's comparison of Dabura vs Cell, would give a continuation to his prior statement.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
Goku: “Magic, huh? [Dabra]’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”

He's tougher than I thought is a better interpretation for this. The Japanese word is the same for both.

Dabura didn't get stronger via his magic, he got tougher to defeat.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

He's tougher than I thought is a better interpretation for this. The Japanese word is the same for both.

Dabura didn't get stronger via his magic, he got tougher to defeat.

Goku's prior statement was related on the idea that Dabura wasn't at full strength... then this statement serves to the purpose of re-affirming what Goku previously stated and what he suspected.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Goku's prior statement was related on the idea that Dabura wasn't at full strength...

"Even if that wasn't his full strength, I'd say, he's somewhere around Cell."

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

"Even if that wasn't his full strength, I'd say, he's somewhere around Cell."

Goku: “Yeah…Well, even if that wasn’t him at full force…I think that before he would have been a frightening opponent, but…7 years ago there was a guy called ‘Cell’…[Dabra]’s probably about as strong as him…”

Goku is estimating Dabura's strength on what he had already seen, he doesn't know if he hide power or was going all-out. Then, he says that 7 years ago, he would have been a frightening opponent and that there was a guy called Cell and that he is probably (which is the key word here) about as strong as him.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Goku is estimating Dabura's strength on what he had already seen, he doesn't know if he hide power or was going all-out. Then, he says that 7 years ago, he would have been a frightening opponent and that there was a guy called Cell and that he is probably (which is the key word here) about as strong as him.

Yeah, and that level of Cell is around Super Saiyan Teen Gohan's ability.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Yeah, and that level of Cell is around Super Saiyan Teen Gohan's ability.

I don't know, by Teen Gohan you refer to Kid Gohan or Buu Saga Gohan?

Either way, I think Dabura is equal or slightly stronger than Perfect Cell (vs Goku), but weaker than True Speed Cell.

 

[FeatsofPower]

I don't know, by Teen Gohan you refer to Kid Gohan or Buu Saga Gohan?

Buu Saga Gohan was the only Gohan that was ever depicted in the manga as a teenager.

Either way, I think Dabura is equal or slightly stronger than Perfect Cell (vs Goku), but weaker than True Speed Cell.

Whatever Goku meant regarding Cell, that level of power is about equal with Super Saiyan Gohan.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Either way, I think Dabura is equal or slightly stronger than Perfect Cell (vs Goku), but weaker than True Speed Cell.

Seems like a fair place to put him.

Shouldn't it be something like this?


True Speed Cell > Dabura > Cell vs Goku?

Since Dabura is stronger than he thought?

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Buu Saga Gohan was the only Gohan that was ever depicted in the manga as a teenager.

Idk people refer to Teen Gohan to Cell Games Gohan, that is when my confussion comes.

Whatever Goku meant regarding Cell, that level of power is about equal with Super Saiyan Gohan.

Weaker than SSj Gohan (Buu Saga), as also Gohan was confident on defeating him.

Seems like a fair place to put him.

Shouldn't it be something like this?


True Speed Cell > Dabura > Cell vs Goku?

Since Dabura is stronger than he thought?

That's how I see things~

 

[FeatsofPower]

Weaker than SSj Gohan (Buu Saga), as also Gohan was confident on defeating him.

Gohan is actually never confident in defeating Dabura, which is why I highlight "tougher" over "stronger", when Goku and Vegeta are talking about how weak Dabura is to Shin in Babidi's ship, Gohan's facial expression shows he doesn't agree with them.

 

[Hector]

I think Toriyama retconned Gohan into being a Super Saiyan at the Budokai. Even down to the Buu meter.

Goku says for Gohan to be like he was against Cell, because Gohan never transformed at the Budokai, it makes sense for Goku to say that then.

Everything makes sense if Gohan was never a SSJ2, it fits pretty much everything.

I don't think SSJ2 is clearly a new transformation. There are intermediate stages between what we call SSJ1 and SSJ2.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Gohan is actually never confident in defeating Dabura, which is why I highlight "tougher" over "stronger", when Goku and Vegeta are talking about how weak Dabura is to Shin in Babidi's ship, Gohan's facial expression shows he doesn't agree with them.

You're right, my bad.

Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.3
Context: after Kaioshin again warns unleashing Boo
Vegeta: "Hmph. The way things are going, this 'Majin Boo' guy isn't going to be anything special, is he? Just like 'Dabra' jerk...[] I'm saying that this 'Dabra' guy doesn't seem as bad as you two fear. Looking at his attacks and movement outside earlier, it seems that if we watch out for his spit, then we should manage something. I can't call Kibito anything but a bumbler for getting done-in like that..."

Even then, Vegeta states that they would manage something. 'Tougher' can also mean stronger or more durable varying the situation.