Gohan vs Cell gaps assuming SSJ2 is a 2x multiplier

[Natasha Romanoff]

It's basically impossible for SSJ2 to be a 2x multiplier, but I managed to make numbers regarding Gohan vs Cell following this route.

PC (vs Gohan): 98
FP PC: 120
Buffed: 150
SPC: 196

SSJ Gohan: 100
SSJ2 Gohan: 200

A justification that can be make about Cell (vs Gohan) against SSJ Gohan can be that Cell didn't managed to make damage to Gohan, as he only raised his speed and taking literally the statement that Cell powered up like Son Gohan (which is an step that I don't agree with), which could be refering to his fight with just SSJ Gohan rather than SSJ2 Gohan which would give him an slight edge. However, how would you make your own numbers to fit if SSJ2 was just a 2x multiplier?

If anything, my power level list ain't changing as I consider SSJ2 being a 3x multiplier to SSJ more appropiated with the story.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

PC (vs Gohan): 98
FP PC: 120
Buffed: 150
SPC: 196

SSJ Gohan: 100
SSJ2 Gohan: 200

This is perfect. What's the problem?

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

This is perfect. What's the problem?

The story seems to have PC (vs Gohan) a tiny amount stronger than SSJ Gohan, due to how he speedblitzed him. Something which is impossible even assuming that SPC doubled his power as Cell would end up being stronger than Gohan as a SSJ2.

The other standard I can think up is that Cell doubled his power in relation to Cell (vs Goku), as Cell is outclassed in speed by SSJ Gohan. But, I don't think SPC doubled his power in relation to anything.

Also, that other day I was in bad mood (don't know if you remember it), but I felt bad as you're a very good debater and a very comprehensible person in my eyes, it was about a Broly debate a few days back. This is off-topic, so no wonder if you don't respond it, you're not obligated to anything, but I learned to not respond anything when I am like that, because I can only get bad reactions.

 

[Hector]

Even if SSJ2 can barely be 2x in the manga, there is no way it can be 2x in the anime.

 

[ahill1]

I would like to have a 70/100 gap between [vs Gohan] Cell and FP Cell, 75/100 at least. The power up seemed to be made a big deal out of and Cell thought he could reverse a situation in which he firstly couldn't even see Gohan getting the senzus back. Granted it didn't matter in the end, but I think the power up ought to be big enough for him to think he could cover that. I like some ppl's theories that Cell's power up FP mimicks SSJG2's transformation as he seems bulked up and the auras resemble each other a little... Which also seems to click a little Freeza's power up from 70% to 100%. So I think a 1.33x ~ 1.4x seems fitting.

Gohan's SSJ2 boost in the CGs I like to have as a little over 2x to account for a possible rage boost and for the fact Vegeta was still below Gohan as a SSJ2 in the Boo arc pre Majin but his base and SSJ seemed evolved enough that he was confident in going against an improved Goku, so that to me calls for a considerable breathing room between CGs Goku and Boo arc Vegeta. Still tho, he expected to defeat, perhaps, Gohan if SSJ2 was allowed... It's not clear to me if he expected teen Gohan to benefit from a cherry on cake boost his CGs did. That way, SPC can also get a 2x boost to what he was before when he used real speed vs Gohan (and was >= Gohan), but still be a step below SSJ2 Gohan, as Gohan got this modest but noticeable boost upping his SSJ2 somewhat.

SPC to me is still a level below kid Gohan SSJ2. They aren't right there under undistinguishable terms imo. Close, sure, but not virtually identical. Gohan is still the clear benchmark in the Boo arc and Goku was sure that if Gohan put forth the power they made together, he could win. It's a close gap that the result wouldn't be sure in a h2h battle, as Cell put it ("I wouldn't be so sure of it this time"), but still a sizeable lead imo. Similar to the gap Goku SSJ had over Freeza would work fine to me (150 vs 140 in my numbers).


Goku SSJ (CGs) : 100
Cell (vs Goku) : 110
Kid Gohan SSJ : 120
Cell (real speed) : 125
Cell (FP) : 170
Kid Gohan SSJ2 (little cherry on cake boost on top) : 270
SPC: 250

Teen Gohan SSJ : 100
-- SSJ2 : 200

Vegeta SSJ (Boo arc) : 125
-- SSJ2 : 250

Goku SSJ (Boo arc) : 150
-- SSJ2 : 300


I remember seeing old lists from neo guys back in the golden days who always used a 5x multipler for SSJ2. That way, they had Cell getting a 3x power up going FP. Doesn't seem necessary to me, but sounds cool with the story and moment too. Imagine Gohan getting a 5x power up, damn... That's huge and goes well with the flow. Now imagine Cell getting a 3x power up, wow, impressive, but falls way behind Gohan's. Still, if I used a 5x multiplier for SSJ2, I'd prefer giving FP Cell not more than a 2x boost. It separates the SSJ2's boost as its totally own thing.

 

[Yoshi]

This is perfect. What's the problem?

Suppressed Perfect Cell and Super Perfect Cell are too close to Gohan. 95 and 190 should do.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The story seems to have PC (vs Gohan) a tiny amount stronger than SSJ Gohan, due to how he speedblitzed him. Something which is impossible even assuming that SPC doubled his power as Cell would end up being stronger than Gohan as a SSJ2.

The other standard I can think up is that Cell doubled his power in relation to Cell (vs Goku), as Cell is outclassed in speed by SSJ Gohan. But, I don't think SPC doubled his power in relation to anything.

I don’t think SPC has to be exactly 2x anything. It’s just a Zenkai that put him up there. If he had to be 2x anything, I’d be his FP, but that’s far above Gohan’s level.

SSJ Gohan vs Cell is a bit weird. Cell only raises his speed vs Gohan, and Gohan’s problem is mostly that he doesn’t want to fight.

Also, that other day I was in bad mood (don't know if you remember it), but I felt bad as you're a very good debater and a very comprehensible person in my eyes, it was about a Broly debate a few days back. This is off-topic, so no wonder if you don't respond it, you're not obligated to anything, but I learned to not respond anything when I am like that, because I can only get bad reactions.

Don’t worry. I don’t really care/mind about when this happens, and debating these non canon movies bore me quickly anyway so it never lasts.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

@GreatSaiyaman123
How do you get this statement about Cell powering up like Son Gohan, then?

Spoiler

I do also disagree that Cell's form obtains saiyans-type increase as the Buff/Giant forms used against Trunks & Gohan weren't noticeably ahead of his prior levels.

Of course, FP PC is far ahead of SSJ Gohan, so we have to search a distinct level, either that or assume that Cell is overhyping his current level. SSJ2 Gohan or Super Perfect Cell can't be 2x FP Perfect Cell as shown when Perfect Cell gives an punch straight to the face to Gohan.

From what it is shown, Cell is a little ahead of Gohan, and that same Gohan who "doesn't want to fight" could dodge Cell's attacks that can outmatch in speed to Goku.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Suppressed Perfect Cell and Super Perfect Cell are too close to Gohan. 95 and 190 should do.

I actually have SPC at 94% of SSJ2 Gohan, but I'm trying a different way in which it could work.

I just can't imagine Perfect Cell (vs Gohan) being weaker than SSJ Gohan.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

@ahill1
I think your arguments are pretty well elaborated and you purpose a very good list of characters can compare with each other.

The only thing I might disagree is CG Goku in relation to CG Gohan, I think CG Goku can be 75% of Gohan (on equal forms) which would make possible for Goku to not be able to follow or read his movements in a fight, and that's what is shown, the same Cell who is too fast for Goku can't even reach Gohan.

 

[ahill1]

Yeah, but Cell using his real speed didn't seem like that big of a power up and it was still enough to be slightly ahead Gohan.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

@GreatSaiyaman123
How do you get this statement about Cell powering up like Son Gohan, then?

Spoiler

View attachment 2330

I do also disagree that Cell's form obtains saiyans-type increase as the Buff/Giant forms used against Trunks & Gohan weren't noticeably ahead of his prior levels.

Of course, FP PC is far ahead of SSJ Gohan, so we have to search a distinct level, either that or assume that Cell is overhyping his current level. SSJ2 Gohan or Super Perfect Cell can't be 2x FP Perfect Cell as shown when Perfect Cell gives an punch straight to the face to Gohan.

From what it is shown, Cell is a little ahead of Gohan, and that same Gohan who "doesn't want to fight" could dodge Cell's attacks that can outmatch in speed to Goku.

It just means he powered up too. Not that he got the exact same boost.

How do you interpret Cell raising his speed vs Gohan? Was he holding back speed vs Goku? Or did he raise it past his power against Gohan? Did he raise his power too?

 

[Azurbleak]

It's basically impossible for SSJ2 to be a 2x multiplier, but I managed to make numbers regarding Gohan vs Cell following this route.

PC (vs Gohan): 98
FP PC: 120
Buffed: 150
SPC: 196

SSJ Gohan: 100
SSJ2 Gohan: 200

A justification that can be make about Cell (vs Gohan) against SSJ Gohan can be that Cell didn't managed to make damage to Gohan, as he only raised his speed and taking literally the statement that Cell powered up like Son Gohan (which is an step that I don't agree with), which could be refering to his fight with just SSJ Gohan rather than SSJ2 Gohan which would give him an slight edge. However, how would you make your own numbers to fit if SSJ2 was just a 2x multiplier?

If anything, my power level list ain't changing as I consider SSJ2 being a 3x multiplier to SSJ more appropiated with the story.

impossible for a simple reason: spc declared after his zenkai boost being "almost as strong as gohan" and gohan ssj2 when he got injured lost 50% of his power still goku declared that gohan could beat cell and was only supressing himself to preserve the earth and he was right as gohan unleashed enough power to finish super perfect cell, vegeta just buy time for gohan he didn't weakened cell or distracted him enough to weaken his kamehameha, gohan had the power within himself to destroy spc even with 50% of his full power

 

[ahill1]

Gohan actually raised his power to FP to defeat Cell. That's why Goku said "you still aren't going all out"... And he was losing to Cell in that state. So weakened Gohan is definitely below SPC.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Piccolo flat out says <50% Gohan is weaker than Cell, no "maybe" or "perhaps". When Gohan powers up why would he still be below 50%?

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

It just means he powered up too. Not that he got the exact same boost.

How do you interpret Cell raising his speed vs Gohan? Was he holding back speed vs Goku? Or did he raise it past his power against Gohan? Did he raise his power too?

Tbf, that interpretation doesn't seem quite logical, Cell has seen many and distinct power ups in all of his stance ever since he appeared, why would he make specifically mention of Gohan's one?

Cell didn't show all of his speed against Goku, he did it with Gohan, though. Cell only increased his speed, his power level was exactly the same.

 

[Goku9001]

The 2x SSJ multiplier doesn't really work even in the manga. SSJ2 Gohan's tanking feat against Perfect Cell was equivalent to SSJ Goku's against 50% Frieza. SSJ Goku held a >2x advantage against 50% Frieza and still budged slightly against Frieza's death beam. In the same light, SSJ2 Gohan also withstood Perfect Cell's punch in a similar fashion without having to brace himself. To warrant Gohan's tanking feat against Cell, he would already need to be nearly twice as strong as Cell.

This isn't even factoring FP Cell's power-up. No one in the crowd, including Goku, was certain of Gohan's victory over Cell even after Gohan's power-up and the power he derived from rage which has never been minuscule. Goku believed Gohan would win based on the rage boosts he'd received in the past, Gohan surpassed his expectations, and Perfect Cell blew Goku's expectations out of the water. Even FP Cell's power being a 70 in respect to a 50 from SSJ Gohan does not work. You would have to minimalize Gohan's projected rage boost which is a blatant contradiction. Gohan's rage boosts have been far greater than 1.1x and Gohan literally transformed. As a bare minimum, Gohan should be assumed to have gotten 1.5x stronger.

The final cherry on top would be SSJ2 Gohan's performance against Buff Perfect Cell where he inflicted brain damage on Cell with a single blow despite Cell's regeneration combined with Saiyan + Frieza durability. At minimum, SSJ2 Gohan would be 1.5x stronger than Cell here.

The only avenue would be to give Gohan a substantial rage boost. Any less and you're coping. This is how I would do it while remaining consistent with previously established power scaling.

Perfect Cell (vs. Gohan): 100
SSJ Gohan: 100
Projected Rage Gohan: 150
FP Perfect Cell: 165
Buff Perfect Cell: 200
Super Perfect Cell: 285
SSJ2 Gohan: 300

 

[ahill1]

I've been reading that section and it's possible Cell was toe to toe with Goku initially but showed more of his speed once Goku use the Teleportation. Cell makes a case to show how quick he is even without teleporting and shocks Goku. A speed up might make sense there.

Goku SSJ 100
Cell (powered up) 105
--- speed post shocking Goku 115

Gohan SSJ 110

Cell agrees that Goku wasn't entirely bluffing but thinks this level of power isn't nearly enough for him and goes at Gohan, possibly indicating Gohan was at a level that would be handled by the speed Cell used Vs Goku.

But then Gohan's speed surprises Cell, possibly indicating Gohan's strength and speed may be a little off sync:

Cell [speed] 115
Gohan [speed] 125
Cell [real speed] 130

And then 130 may be the max level his speed can be increased to without him needing to increase his powers too. The limits of his suppressed level shown with his speed only.


Goku [power] 100
-- speed 100
Cell [powered up] 105
-- speed [to show off] 115
Gohan [power] 110
--- Cell deems him as inferior
--- --- Gohan's speed 125

Throws Cell off and then Cell ups his real speed maximum available at his suppressed level to 130.

So Gohan and Cell are up there speed wise (125) and more or less down there on strength (110 Vs 105). And Cell saw his attack didn't damage Gohan at all, so maybe in terms of strength Cell was a little below Gohan. Then I think Cell, untoldly, upped his powers so more damage would be dealt to Gohan. He wanted Gohan to feel the threat, he wouldn't stand for no damage. But I don't think he necessarily would bring it to his 130 speed level or he'd hurt Gohan too much. He likely brought it up to 120, while he had previously utilised a 130 speed level.

That's what I thought of to make the most detailing sense of this part when reading a little ago.

Maybe when Gohan got slightly enraged he brought his strength to 120, almost to his natural speed of 125. And then got to 240 with SSJ2 and a little extra'd to 270 as a completion modest rage augmentation. I don't think he'd necessarily be faster in SSJ2 tho, requires more training in that form.