Gohan was a SSJ or SSJ2 against Dabura?

[ahill1]

What do you think?

 

[Six Trails]

Super Saiyan for me.

 

[Lord Brofist]

As far as the manga is concerned, its pretty much all but outright stated Gohan is a Super Saiyan. He doesn't share one single spark in his entire fight. His aura is calm and wavy instead of the usual jagged style SSJ2 is known for. We specifically see his SSJ2 form at the budokai and we see SSJ2 Goku and Majin Vegeta a few chapters later, all sharing that distinctive style that Gohan lacked. Goku even straight up shows the difference between SSJ and SSj2 to Majin Boo and to end it all, it's heavily implied that Gohan may not even reach into his SSJ2 power due to this whole rage issue.

It amazes me when people try to claim that Gohan, at least in the manga (do whatever you wish with the anime) was an SSJ2 against Dabura when absolutely nothing supports it. You can call inconsistency if you want but that doesn't change the straight up evidence given to us.

Trying to say Gohan is an SSj2 against Dabura is like saying Vegeta was a weak SSJ2 against the Cell Juniors.

 

[Lightsworn]

Most evidence points to Gohan being Super Saiyan 2.

 

[Zoom]

Most evidence points to Gohan being Super Saiyan 2.

Such as?

Anyway, both scenarios make the Buu arc a little inconsistent.

 

[Lightsworn]

Most evidence points to Gohan being Super Saiyan 2.

Such as?

Anyway, both scenarios make the Buu arc a little inconsistent.

It makes the most narrative sense with Gohan needing to get enraged to fight Dabra and Boo, along with Dabra's confidence even after having knowledge of Ssj1 Goku's power. Gohan having Ssj2 style hair, plus the dialgoue is more than enough proof for me that he was a Super Saiyan 2. Sparks aren't an issue to me since I don't think sparks alone are a representation of the form.

 

[Lord Brofist]

But Gohan doesn't get enraged, that was the entire point. Gohan for whatever reason can't tap into that power he had before. Gohan never had SSJ2 style hair either. People try to utilize the single bang notion but the thing is, that stopped being used around the time the Budokaii came around and Gohan stopped showing it.

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This is the only time Gohan goes SSJ2 in the Boo Arc. Not only is there the usage of electricity, something which is a consistent trait of the SSJ2 form in all cases. There is also the indication of a very jagged and rough aura style, something which Toriyama was also quite consistent on and you can see in any other SSJ2 form like Goku, Vegeta and Kid Gohan.

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Here's Gohan as an SSJ during the spout with Spopovich. He has one bang, no lightning and his aura is a very calm wavy style of the SSJ form. This is the same style used not only in the fight with Dabura but also when he's pulling out the Z-Sword as well.

 

[Lightsworn]

Gohan managed to transform at will at the Budokai with no rage and then later says he cannot get enraged to unleash his rage boost. They are two separate things which is even indicated by Goku and Vegeta. Hence why Goku never bothers to tell Gohan to transform like he did at the Budokai, but to get angry like he did at the Cell Games and unleash all of his power.

That's assuming Gohan was even Ssj1 in that shot. Gohan being Ssj2 while watching Videl's beating makes more sense. It makes more sense that he transforms into Ssj2 there when he is mad than to transform into regular Ssj that he has complete mastery over.

 

[Lord Brofist]

Call it inconsistency but lighting and aura style have always been consistent.

By the time the battle with Dabura came, there was no difference between his enraged self and his SSJ2 self.

He'd have to be an SSJ in the last shot. Otherwise Yamu and everyone else would've jumped him the moment they saw him and Kaioshin and Kibito would've been shocked already to have seen him in his SSJ2 state. In fact that king of the entire point of Gohan's transformation into SSJ2 against Kibito, to show that shock value.

But more so again, Gohan is literally showing zero traits of the SSj2 form, no lightning, no jagged aura style. And its this same style he's using in his fight against Dabura. Toriyama was ALWAYS consistent on this point and you can easily see that not only with Gohan at the tournament but also Goku and Vegeta as well.

 

[Lightsworn]

"Inconsistency" is your argument? Vegeta and Goku both witnessed Gohan transform to Ssj2 with no rage involved. Then Vegeta even tell us that both him and Goku are stronger than Ssj2 Gohan but doubts his superiority if Gohan were to get enraged. Goku practically says the same thing by telling Gohan to get enraged like he did at the Cell and that he would be stronger than everybody. The story is clearly depicting that his Ssj2 and his rage boosts are not the same at all.

Spopovich was fighting Videl and Yamu was shown to not have the energy meter at that time, so they wouldn't have jumped in anyway. Kibito actually only requested regular Super Saiyan. So even regular Super Saiyan would've gotten a reaction out of them, but it didn't. They simply weren't paying attention. You even say Gohan's rage and Ssj2 are the same, but when Gohann is raging out here, you say he is only regular Ssj? Sorry, but to me it makes more sense that he was Ssj2 there.

 

[Lord Brofist]

Aura and Lightning says differently.

 

[Lightsworn]

That's what happens when you place more importance on sparks than the actual story making sense. I choose plot, you choose art, we'll leave it at that

 

[ahill1]

Lol plot says that Gohan was a SSJ IMO. Look at how Majin VegetaSSJ is potrayed.

Majin VegetaSSJ is without a doubt Dabura's superior. Could Gohan SSJ2 be weaker than Majin Vegeta SSJ?No, hence Gohan was a only a SSJ.

Gohan is scared that Goku and Vegeta are fighting as SSJ2; He even says that Vegeta is probably as SSJ2, he would not say that if he were SSJ2, since Vegeta said that could defeat Dabura.

Even Kaioshin is surprised when Gohan said that Vegeta and Goku are fighting as SSJ2, he would not be surprised if Gohan fought Dabura as SSJ2, since he would sure know that Goku and Vegeta are able to surpass the SSJ wall.

Seems cleary to me AT's intention of potrayed Gohan as only a SSJ.

 

[Lord Brofist]

The plot doesn't say Gohan is an SSj2 at all. In fact it implies the exact opposite. There's huge implications and statements given that due Gohan no longer tapping into his rage, he's somehow no longer able to tap into that power he used when he fought Cell.

Add in the complete lack of ANYTHING SSj2 related on him, be it lighting or aura style and its pretty clear where Gohan stands int his whole thing...as an SSJ.

Why in fact would Gohan look so different from the rest of the SSj2s if he was one already because Toriyama was quite consistent on his work with the SSJ2 forms and to have someone literally sharing NONE of the characteristics doesn't bode well.

It's not about what makes sense, its about what is said and shown and SSJ Gohan is very well shown.

 

[Lightsworn]

It seems you've accidently advocated that Gohan was Super Saiyan 2 without even realising it. Gohan displayed the ability to turn Super Saiyan 2 with no rage at the Budokai.

Normal Gohan = Ssj2 Gohan.

Vegeta says him and Goku are superior to Ssj2 Gohan but then doubts that if he were to get enraged

Enraged Gohan > Ssj2 Vegeta > Ssj2 Gohan.

This same enraged power is the one that Goku says he needs to defeat Dabra, not plain old Super Saiyan 2, because Super Saiyan 2 is not enough, which is what Goku's statement is saying. Had Super Saiyan 2 been enough to do it, then that's what Gohan would've logically done. You'd create a useless contradiction in the story by saying he could easily transform earlier and then cannot later.

Not to mention Dabra is hyped up to be at the level of Cell, someone who required Super Saiyan 2 to defeat.
The same Dabra who is confident in defeating all the Saiyans at once despite already having knowledge on Super Saiyan Goku's power.

 

[ahill1]

It seems you've accidently advocated that Gohan was Super Saiyan 2 without even realising it. Gohan displayed the ability to turn Super Saiyan 2 with no rage at the Budokai.

Normal Gohan = Ssj2 Gohan.

Vegeta says him and Goku are superior to Ssj2 Gohan but then doubts that if he were to get enraged

Enraged Gohan > Ssj2 Vegeta > Ssj2 Gohan.

This same enraged power is the one that Goku says he needs to defeat Dabra, not plain old Super Saiyan 2, because Super Saiyan 2 is not enough, which is what Goku's statement is saying. Had Super Saiyan 2 been enough to do it, then that's what Gohan would've logically done. You'd create a useless contradiction in the story by saying he could easily transform earlier and then cannot later.

Not to mention Dabra is hyped up to be at the level of Cell, someone who required Super Saiyan 2 to defeat.
The same Dabra who is confident in defeating all the Saiyans at once despite already having knowledge on Super Saiyan Goku's power.

Enranged Gohan is his SSJ2; Gohan's Enranged boost is not consistente, hence the reason Vegeta said that who knows what would happened if Gohan get mad.

 

[Lightsworn]

It seems you've accidently advocated that Gohan was Super Saiyan 2 without even realising it. Gohan displayed the ability to turn Super Saiyan 2 with no rage at the Budokai.

Normal Gohan = Ssj2 Gohan.

Vegeta says him and Goku are superior to Ssj2 Gohan but then doubts that if he were to get enraged

Enraged Gohan > Ssj2 Vegeta > Ssj2 Gohan.

This same enraged power is the one that Goku says he needs to defeat Dabra, not plain old Super Saiyan 2, because Super Saiyan 2 is not enough, which is what Goku's statement is saying. Had Super Saiyan 2 been enough to do it, then that's what Gohan would've logically done. You'd create a useless contradiction in the story by saying he could easily transform earlier and then cannot later.

Not to mention Dabra is hyped up to be at the level of Cell, someone who required Super Saiyan 2 to defeat.
The same Dabra who is confident in defeating all the Saiyans at once despite already having knowledge on Super Saiyan Goku's power.

Enranged Gohan is his SSJ2; Gohan's Enranged boost is not consistente, hence the reason Vegeta said that who knows what would happened if Gohan get mad.

You contradicted yourself. You say enraged Gohan is only Ssj2 and then you admit when he's enraged you don't know what would happen. You can't have it both ways. Vegeta saw Gohan transform into Ssj2 at the Budokai. Then says he doesn't know what would happen if Gohan got mad. Which would mean that Gohan at the Budokai wasn't enraged and that he can gain more power on top of that.

However your whole argument solely depends on pretending Ssj2 Gohan never even existed at the Budokai. So there's no point in arguing with you about this really.

 

[ahill1]

It seems you've accidently advocated that Gohan was Super Saiyan 2 without even realising it. Gohan displayed the ability to turn Super Saiyan 2 with no rage at the Budokai.

Normal Gohan = Ssj2 Gohan.

Vegeta says him and Goku are superior to Ssj2 Gohan but then doubts that if he were to get enraged

Enraged Gohan > Ssj2 Vegeta > Ssj2 Gohan.

This same enraged power is the one that Goku says he needs to defeat Dabra, not plain old Super Saiyan 2, because Super Saiyan 2 is not enough, which is what Goku's statement is saying. Had Super Saiyan 2 been enough to do it, then that's what Gohan would've logically done. You'd create a useless contradiction in the story by saying he could easily transform earlier and then cannot later.

Not to mention Dabra is hyped up to be at the level of Cell, someone who required Super Saiyan 2 to defeat.
The same Dabra who is confident in defeating all the Saiyans at once despite already having knowledge on Super Saiyan Goku's power.

Enranged Gohan is his SSJ2; Gohan's Enranged boost is not consistente, hence the reason Vegeta said that who knows what would happened if Gohan get mad.

You contradicted yourself. You say enraged Gohan is only Ssj2 and then you admit when he's enraged you don't know what would happen. You can't have it both ways. Vegeta saw Gohan transform into Ssj2 at the Budokai. Then says he doesn't know what would happen if Gohan got mad. Which would mean that Gohan at the Budokai wasn't enraged and that he can gain more power on top of that.

However your whole argument solely depends on pretending Ssj2 Gohan never even existed at the Budokai. So there's no point in arguing with you about this really.

I don't contradict myself; I said that Gohan does not have a "rage boost" as many think; his "rage boost" was your SSJ2 in this tournament. Stop twisting what others say.

You ignored my argument and repeated everything you had said. The multiplier of the "rage boost" is not consistent, Gohan and Vegeta knows very well. In Cell Games that happened to be 2 x multiplier (coinciding with the SSJ2), but as Vegeta will know it will always be of 2 x? Can be 1, 307x as when he got angry with Raditz.

 

[Lightsworn]

Enranged Gohan is his SSJ2; Gohan's Enranged boost is not consistente, hence the reason Vegeta said that who knows what would happened if Gohan get mad.

You contradicted yourself. You say enraged Gohan is only Ssj2 and then you admit when he's enraged you don't know what would happen. You can't have it both ways. Vegeta saw Gohan transform into Ssj2 at the Budokai. Then says he doesn't know what would happen if Gohan got mad. Which would mean that Gohan at the Budokai wasn't enraged and that he can gain more power on top of that.

However your whole argument solely depends on pretending Ssj2 Gohan never even existed at the Budokai. So there's no point in arguing with you about this really.

I don't contradict myself; I said that Gohan does not have a "rage boost" as many think; his "rage boost" was your SSJ2 in this tournament. Stop twisting what others say.

You ignored my argument and repeated everything you had said. The multiplier of the "rage boost" is not consistent, Gohan and Vegeta knows very well. In Cell Games that happened to be 2 x multiplier (coinciding with the SSJ2), but as Vegeta will know it will always be of 2 x? Can be 1, 307x as when he got angry with Raditz.

Can you really not see the problem with what you're saying? You just admitted that Ssj2 and Gohan's enraged state are two different things. If you're admitting that Gohan could potentially be more powerful than his Ssj2 power at the Budokai then why are limiting it to just his Ssj2? Gohan needed NO rage to transform at the Budokai. That alone kills your argument of "Enraged Gohan is his Ssj2" when both Goku and Vegeta say otherwise and you juat admitted it. Goku specifically states that Gohan needs to enraged power to defeat Dabra, not to transform to Ssj2. Otherwise he would've just turned Ssj2 and killed Dabra instantly.

 

[ahill1]

You contradicted yourself. You say enraged Gohan is only Ssj2 and then you admit when he's enraged you don't know what would happen. You can't have it both ways. Vegeta saw Gohan transform into Ssj2 at the Budokai. Then says he doesn't know what would happen if Gohan got mad. Which would mean that Gohan at the Budokai wasn't enraged and that he can gain more power on top of that.

However your whole argument solely depends on pretending Ssj2 Gohan never even existed at the Budokai. So there's no point in arguing with you about this really.

I don't contradict myself; I said that Gohan does not have a "rage boost" as many think; his "rage boost" was your SSJ2 in this tournament. Stop twisting what others say.

You ignored my argument and repeated everything you had said. The multiplier of the "rage boost" is not consistent, Gohan and Vegeta knows very well. In Cell Games that happened to be 2 x multiplier (coinciding with the SSJ2), but as Vegeta will know it will always be of 2 x? Can be 1, 307x as when he got angry with Raditz.

Can you really not see the problem with what you're saying? You just admitted that Ssj2 and Gohan's enraged state are two different things. If you're admitting that Gohan could potentially be more powerful than his Ssj2 power at the Budokai then why are limiting it to just his Ssj2? Gohan needed NO rage to transform at the Budokai. That alone kills your argument of "Enraged Gohan is his Ssj2" when both Goku and Vegeta say otherwise and you juat admitted it. Goku specifically states that Gohan needs to enraged power to defeat Dabra, not to transform to Ssj2. Otherwise he would've just turned Ssj2 and killed Dabra instantly.

I said that in the Cell Games Gohan didn't have a boost due to anger the SSJ2 was due to his anger. It turns out that in the Cell Games the "boost" because of anger of Gohan was your SSJ2, i.e. 2 x. Do you understand?

But Vegeta doesn't know if it will be only 2 x or 1, 307x, since he had different multipliers when Gohan got nervous.

Goku Gohan encouraged so that the latter can become SSJ2, not "overcome the limits of SSJ2. Would be idiot Kaioshin be surprised with the fact that Vegeta and Goku were in a State that overcomes the SSJ Gohan himself was already in SSJ2 in front of you. What you are advocating is meaningless.

Goku believed the anger of Gohan would allow him to access his powers of SSJ2. Vegeta also thinks that, but not so sure if the anger of Gohan allow access only SSJ powers, since the "rage boost" of Gohan's not so consistent. In the mind of Vegeta, Gohan could be even stronger than a SSJ2 with your anger, see that he got stronger 1.307 against Raditz. Is a small possibility, but there is still the fact that Vegeta say that "no one can know what will happen if Gohan be nervous."