Gohan was a SSJ or SSJ2 against Dabura?

[Lightsworn]

I don't contradict myself; I said that Gohan does not have a "rage boost" as many think; his "rage boost" was your SSJ2 in this tournament. Stop twisting what others say.

You ignored my argument and repeated everything you had said. The multiplier of the "rage boost" is not consistent, Gohan and Vegeta knows very well. In Cell Games that happened to be 2 x multiplier (coinciding with the SSJ2), but as Vegeta will know it will always be of 2 x? Can be 1, 307x as when he got angry with Raditz.

Can you really not see the problem with what you're saying? You just admitted that Ssj2 and Gohan's enraged state are two different things. If you're admitting that Gohan could potentially be more powerful than his Ssj2 power at the Budokai then why are limiting it to just his Ssj2? Gohan needed NO rage to transform at the Budokai. That alone kills your argument of "Enraged Gohan is his Ssj2" when both Goku and Vegeta say otherwise and you juat admitted it. Goku specifically states that Gohan needs to enraged power to defeat Dabra, not to transform to Ssj2. Otherwise he would've just turned Ssj2 and killed Dabra instantly.

I said that in the Cell Games Gohan didn't have a boost due to anger the SSJ2 was due to his anger. It turns out that in the Cell Games the "boost" because of anger of Gohan was your SSJ2, i.e. 2 x. Do you understand?

But Vegeta doesn't know if it will be only 2 x or 1, 307x, since he had different multipliers when Gohan got nervous.

Goku Gohan encouraged so that the latter can become SSJ2, not "overcome the limits of SSJ2. Would be idiot Kaioshin be surprised with the fact that Vegeta and Goku were in a State that overcomes the SSJ Gohan himself was already in SSJ2 in front of you. What you are advocating is meaningless.

Goku believed the anger of Gohan would allow him to access his powers of SSJ2. Vegeta also thinks that, but not so sure if the anger of Gohan allow access only SSJ powers, since the "rage boost" of Gohan's not so consistent. In the mind of Vegeta, Gohan could be even stronger than a SSJ2 with your anger, see that he got stronger 1.307 against Raditz. Is a small possibility, but there is still the fact that Vegeta say that "no one can know what will happen if Gohan be nervous."

What you're saying makes absolutely no sense. Why would go Goku tell him to get angry to access his Ssj2 when he already showed him he needed NO anger in the first place at the Budokai ? You keep eluding to this because it would destroy your whole argument. If Goku was simply telling him to go Ssj2 then he would have said "Gohan, transform like you did at he Budokai and Dabra will be a piece of cake" then Gohan would stand there, transform, and then go down to defeat Dabra. Too bad that's not what happens. Goku tell him he needs to get angry because he needs more power than he has already displayed in order to defeat Dabra. You're making no sense at all. You should stick to the art argument. You're just creating contradictions in the story.

 

[ahill1]

Can you really not see the problem with what you're saying? You just admitted that Ssj2 and Gohan's enraged state are two different things. If you're admitting that Gohan could potentially be more powerful than his Ssj2 power at the Budokai then why are limiting it to just his Ssj2? Gohan needed NO rage to transform at the Budokai. That alone kills your argument of "Enraged Gohan is his Ssj2" when both Goku and Vegeta say otherwise and you juat admitted it. Goku specifically states that Gohan needs to enraged power to defeat Dabra, not to transform to Ssj2. Otherwise he would've just turned Ssj2 and killed Dabra instantly.

I said that in the Cell Games Gohan didn't have a boost due to anger the SSJ2 was due to his anger. It turns out that in the Cell Games the "boost" because of anger of Gohan was your SSJ2, i.e. 2 x. Do you understand?

But Vegeta doesn't know if it will be only 2 x or 1, 307x, since he had different multipliers when Gohan got nervous.

Goku Gohan encouraged so that the latter can become SSJ2, not "overcome the limits of SSJ2. Would be idiot Kaioshin be surprised with the fact that Vegeta and Goku were in a State that overcomes the SSJ Gohan himself was already in SSJ2 in front of you. What you are advocating is meaningless.

Goku believed the anger of Gohan would allow him to access his powers of SSJ2. Vegeta also thinks that, but not so sure if the anger of Gohan allow access only SSJ powers, since the "rage boost" of Gohan's not so consistent. In the mind of Vegeta, Gohan could be even stronger than a SSJ2 with your anger, see that he got stronger 1.307 against Raditz. Is a small possibility, but there is still the fact that Vegeta say that "no one can know what will happen if Gohan be nervous."

What you're saying makes absolutely no sense. Why would go Goku tell him to get angry to access his Ssj2 when he already showed him he needed NO anger in the first place at the Budokai ? You keep eluding to this because it would destroy your whole argument. If Goku was simply telling him to go Ssj2 then he would have said "Gohan, transform like you did at he Budokai and Dabra will be a piece of cake" then Gohan would stand there, transform, and then go down to defeat Dabra. Too bad that's not what happens. Goku tell him he needs to get angry because he needs more power than he has already displayed in order to defeat Dabra. You're making no sense at all. You should stick to the art argument. You're just creating contradictions in the story.

You keep saying the same thing: "it makes no sense because Gohan bla bla bla ..."-. You can't observe the flow of the story. You don't know how to interpret properly the history. You're just going to repeat what you said because it's very stuck to only part of the story.

In first place was never shown that Gohan has a "boost" due to anger in the Cell Games.

Secondly, I already said that there was probably a retcon ... the characters clearly do not remember very well what happened in the budokai. Kaioshin, for example, was concerned that Vegeta could get hurt in the fight against Pui Pui, and Kaioshin was Gohan SSJ2 in this tournament. At probably had a change of heart and decided to change the course of history. Note that Kaioshin is surprised when Gohan says Vegeta and Goku were fighting like SSJ2. He wouldn't be too surprised if he remembered clearly that Gohan was a SSJ2 in this tournament.

Anyway, as p123 said, Majin Vegeta SSJ is depicted as stronger than Gohan and Dabura, which destroys your entire argument. p123 has proven to you that Majin Vegeta SSJ is stronger than Dabura, but you won't hear as this would destroy the design you have erroneously about the characters.

 

[Son Gokū]

This question?....... AGAIN?!

 

[Zoom]

To sum things up, artwork suggests Gohan was SSj1 when he fought against Dabura, but most of the dialogue suggests Dabura is at SSj2 level, the same guide that said Trunks and Goten was around 18's level supports this.

So which takes precedence artwork or dialogue?

I have one question though, if people say the dialogue also supports Gohan as being a SSj1, then why would Goku compare Cell to Dabura and later correct himself and say Dabura should be stronger due to magic?

Goku: “Yeah…Well, even if that wasn’t him at full force…I think that before he would have been a frightening opponent, but…7 years ago there was a guy called ‘Cell’…[Dabra]’s probably about as strong as him…â€￾

Goku: “Magic, huh? He’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?â€￾
Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…â€￾
Goku: “He really did slack off!â€￾


What I mean by this is in the Cell arc, SSj1 Gohan (kid) was consider stronger than his SSj1 teen self. Gohan as a kid was doing pretty well against a suppressed Perfect Cell. So, if his kid self was stronger, wouldn't Dabura easily over power Teen Gohan? But Gohan was shown to break Dabura's sword and survived his ki blast quite easily.

Anyway, i've been on the fence for both sides and I realize something, no matter which you take, both sides have inconsistencies that need explaining. So this is why I've changed to Gohan being a SSj1 due to fact that at least Akira Toriyama's artwork has stayed consistent throughout the Buu arc.

 

[Lord Brofist]

Because Goku doesn't have to be talking about Full Powered Cell or even the Cell that SSJ Kid Gohan fought. Even when Cell was only fighting Goku, other than Gohan, he was still easily the second strongest fighter at the Cell Games and still a threat.

You can easily have it as

Dabura (With Magic)>Dabura~Cell against Goku.

It's very easy to put Dabura and Gohan around the halfway point between SSJ Kid Gohan and Cell Games Goku, all of which were vastly weaker than say Full Powered Perfect Cell.

 

[Pakl]

Gohan was SSjin.....

http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8360090/1/

Good times

 

[Southern Gothic]

I always went with Gohan being a Super Saiyan.

More specifically, I saw him as MSSJ.

Otherwise, man, that is a weak ass SSJ2 fighting Dabra.

 

[Itachi]

I can see the argument from the plot perspective of why Gohan should be SSJ2. He was shown to be able to tap into SSJ2 effortlessly in the Budokai meaning that rage isn't required to use it. Also Dabura has seen a stronger SSJ Goku already and is confident in fighting, so it wouldn't make sense for Gohan not to be SSJ2.

It can probably go either way.

 

[Zoom]

You can easily have it as

Dabura (With Magic)>Dabura~Cell against Goku.

Why would Goku only assume a suppressed Perfect Cell though, when Goku witnessed Perfect Cell's true power?

Cell: Well, then, let me show you... my true, terrible power!
Goku: This... is Cell's full power at last.
SSj2 Gohan: Whoopee.

Volume 19, page 15.

 

[Lightsworn]

You mainly end up with contradictions if you have Gohan as a Super Saiyan