Gohan was SSJ against Dabura.

[Void]

SS2 Goku and SS2 Majin Vegeta being drawn with sparks in the same chapter Gohan is shown with no sparks and a regular Super Saiyan aura kind of tells me AT knew exactly which version of Gohan he was drawing.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

but written as a SSJ2.

I'd say even that's doubtful. We have things such as Gohan saying the high level of damage Goku and Vegeta were dealing was from them fighting on a level "Far above Super Saiyan." If he was doing the same against Dabura, he'd have worded that statement a lot differently.

Then you also have Vegeta and Goku both agreeing that Dabura is no longer a colossal threat, despite Cell's peak self still being a rival to SS2 Gohan and that Gohan not being too far off from SS2 Goku's league, regardless of whether or not you follow the rage boost theory. You could say Goku was referring to FP Perfect Cell, but if he wasn't referring to the strongest version of Cell, then why not one of his weaker selves? Why not the one Goku actually fought, who an SSJ Boo Arc Gohan should be in a similar league to?

 

[ahill1]

I'd say even that's doubtful. We have things such as Gohan saying the high level of damage Goku and Vegeta were dealing was from them fighting on a level "Far above Super Saiyan." If he was doing the same against Dabura, he'd have worded that statement a lot differently.

Gohan merely said that Goku and likely Vegeta were using a level that surpasses the normal SSJ. I don't see how that implies himself was only a SSJ. Establishing Goku and Vegeta are SSJ2s =/= he himself not being a SSJ2.

Then you also have Vegeta and Goku both agreeing that Dabura is no longer a colossal threat, despite Cell's peak self still being a rival to SS2 Gohan and that Gohan not being too far off from SS2 Goku's league, regardless of whether or not you follow the rage boost theory. You could say Goku was referring to FP Perfect Cell, but if he wasn't referring to the strongest version of Cell, then why not one of his weaker selves? Why not the one Goku actually fought, who an SSJ Boo Arc Gohan should be in a similar league to?

It's impossible that Goku didn't sense full-power Cell, while it is possible that he didn't sense Super Perfect Cell. I think it is likely that he did, if he truly knew Gohan to be stronger than him, but there's no actual guarantee of that.

Goku comparing Dabura to suppressed Cell is an absurd contortion of how the characters do direct comparisons designed to fit the art. And it doesn't even make sense. Gohan was already weaker than suppressed Cell as SSJ (on par, at most) and he's way weaker now, so there's no way he'd be keeping up with someone later established to be far stronger than that version of Cell. So you'd have to go even further and say Goku compared Dabura to Cell's standing level or something absurd like that.

And it can actually be argued that Gohan's gap over SPC is a little more pronounced than we thought, as nothing actually states they were on par. We have Vegeta launching a no-name blast at SPC and affecting him, so it stands a resason a blast intended to kill a SSJ would considerably injure someone who threw himself in front of it, unguarded and not expecting it to be that powerful.

 

[SSJ2]

I'd say even that's doubtful. We have things such as Gohan saying the high level of damage Goku and Vegeta were dealing was from them fighting on a level "Far above Super Saiyan." If he was doing the same against Dabura, he'd have worded that statement a lot differently.

Then you also have Vegeta and Goku both agreeing that Dabura is no longer a colossal threat, despite Cell's peak self still being a rival to SS2 Gohan and that Gohan not being too far off from SS2 Goku's league, regardless of whether or not you follow the rage boost theory. You could say Goku was referring to FP Perfect Cell, but if he wasn't referring to the strongest version of Cell, then why not one of his weaker selves? Why not the one Goku actually fought, who an SSJ Boo Arc Gohan should be in a similar league to?

 

[ahill1]

Why did you repeat his post?

 

[SSJ2]

It’s called QFT.

 

[ahill1]

I addressed those points.

 

[SSJ2]

But yea, please call our viewpoint absurd, twisted, and nonsensical. That is cool man.

 

[SSJ2]

Man for Christ sake. I am not addressing you. I quoted his post and the quote messed up so I deleted his quote from the post. I was QFTing.

 

[ahill1]

Ok.

I didn't exactly call his viewpoint absurd. I say contorting Goku's comparison to a standing-around Cell is absurd.

 

[VampireWicked]

It's simple, while Gohan and Dabura fought, Vegeta claimed that he was going to quickly get out of Dabura.

  Later, Goku thinks about finishing quickly with Majin Vegeta, transforming into SSJ2. But then Majin Vegeta becomes SSJ2 and Goku says that the fight will be much more difficult than he thought.

  In conclusion, Goku suspected that Vegeta could be transformed into SSJ2, but he was not 100% sure until he saw it. For while Goku did know that Vegeta was >> Dabura.

  Therefore, Gohan was SSJ against Dabura.

It makes no sense & only plays to the Gohan fan love, however could work.

1. It doesn't because if Gohan only used SuperSaiyan against Dabura means he did nothing but waste time & effort instead of dispatching Dabura & progressing that much closer & that much quicker to their end goal.
And that doesn't fit Gohan's characteristics.

I don't believe this true because I don't see how Akira Toriyama would allow Goku/Vegeta AscendedSayian & not Gohan.
Also this would fit in with the fact of Gohan not training from PerfectCell to the Buu arc, so his overall PowerLevel would drop.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Gohan merely said that Goku and likely Vegeta were using a level that surpasses the normal SSJ. I don't see how that implies himself was only a SSJ. Establishing Goku and Vegeta are SSJ2s =/= he himself not being a SSJ2.

It still stands to reason that if he were using that form as well, he'd mention it when explaining things to Shin.

It's impossible that Goku didn't sense full-power Cell, while it is possible that he didn't sense Super Perfect Cell. I think it is likely that he did, if he truly knew Gohan to be stronger than him, but there's no actual guarantee of that.

Whilst I can see that line of reasoning, the latter part muddles things somewhat. His confidence in Gohan wasn't false, so it's safe to say he would be able to sense SPC. It was already established he could sense as distant a part of Otherworld as Kaio's from Earth, so the same would more than stand for the reverse.

Goku comparing Dabura to suppressed Cell is an absurd contortion of how the characters do direct comparisons designed to fit the art.

As SSJ2 already mentioned, the art is there to compliment the story in a visual medium. They don't play entirely separate parts in telling a story.

And it doesn't even make sense. Gohan was already weaker than suppressed Cell as SSJ (on par, at most) and he's way weaker now, so there's no way he'd be keeping up with someone later established to be far stronger than that version of Cell. So you'd have to go even further and say Goku compared Dabura to Cell's standing level or something absurd like that.

Cell (VS Gohan) >> Cell (VS Goku). The gap between father and son was made apparent to be huge with Gohan viewing his father's full power as playing around by his own standard, so Boo Arc SSJ Gohan being in the same league as CG SSJ Goku and, conversely, Dabura being around the level of the Cell Goku fought would work.

And it can actually be argued that Gohan's gap over SPC is a little more pronounced than we thought, as nothing actually states they were on par.

Nothing states they are, but feats show they are. No other instance in the original manga has a character injured so badly by a far weaker opponent from not having their guard up to the point they bled profusely and lost over half their Ki. By that logic, Piccolo's surprise attack on Nappa should've caused some bleeding and strain on the Saiyan.

We have Vegeta launching a no-name blast at SPC and affecting him, so it stands a resason a blast intended to kill a SSJ would considerably injure someone who threw himself in front of it, unguarded and not expecting it to be that powerful.

I'd say bracing himself is a far cry from being "affected", especially when Cell tanked the attack without even the slightest superficial damage. Also, Vegeta being able to affect Cell at all makes little sense when a far weaker Cell was heavily suggested by the narrative to be capable of taking down everyone at the Cell Games other than SS2 Gohan.

1. It doesn't because if Gohan only used SuperSaiyan against Dabura means he did nothing but waste time & effort instead of dispatching Dabura & progressing that much closer & that much quicker to their end goal.
And that doesn't fit Gohan's characteristics.

I don't believe this true because I don't see how Akira Toriyama would allow Goku/Vegeta AscendedSayian & not Gohan.

Gohan not being able to access SS2 at will would explain this. Him saying he was unable to get angry to the extent he did against Cell heavily alludes to this.

Against Kibito, he'd only recently seen the girl he loved almost get beaten to death, so he had enough fuel for the fire. Against Dabura, quite a lot of time had passed and the drive Gohan had to focus his rage would have severely waned.

 

[ahill1]

It still stands to reason that if he were using that form as well, he'd mention it when explaining things to Shin.

I don't think he necessarily needs to state that. He didn't know Vegeta had SSJ2 -- hadn't confirmed that -- and hence was surprised at realising such. It doesn't imply he was simply a SSJ. His surprise may also stem from the fact that their SSJ2 was on a different level compared to his one.

Whilst I can see that line of reasoning, the latter part muddles things somewhat. His confidence in Gohan wasn't false, so it's safe to say he would be able to sense SPC. It was already established he could sense as distant a part of Otherworld as Kaio's from Earth, so the same would more than stand for the reverse.

That's true. However, comparing Dabura to Perfect Cell's full power would be the most suiting comparison given the info we have. Dabura could barely damage Gohan, while the Cell who fought Goku could still inflict some sort of damage (given the blood) on a Gohan confirmed to be much stronger... And this was AFTER Goku realised Dabura was A LOT stronger than he had forethought. So he had to have some level of Cell in his head even below the one who fought him, rendering the comparison even more useless.

What does the comparison even tell, besides? That Dabura is about as strong as Cell... Even though he isn't on Cell's level at all?

The art and story are in conflict against each other. And there isn't a rule on whether one should take precedence over the other. Gohan does appear, visually, as a SSJ, but he wasn't described, written, perceived that way.

We can also resort to some out of universe explanations as to why Gohan was designed as a SSJ1, besides. Maybe AT hadn't yet cemented on his mind what a SSJ2 is, or how it's properly designed. And since Gohan was already established as way weaker than he was years ago and on a level apart compared to Goku and Vegeta, AT decided to also show that visually.

Cell (VS Gohan) >> Cell (VS Goku).

Cell was only stated to have increased his speed, once the first attacks failed to connect. His power output was still the same, and that'd be the means of comparison Goku had.

Nothing states they are, but feats show they are. No other instance in the original manga has a character injured so badly by a far weaker opponent from not having their guard up to the point they bled profusely and lost over half their Ki. By that logic, Piccolo's surprise attack on Nappa should've caused some bleeding and strain on the Saiyan.

We have already seen how off guard attacks can have a higher effect though. And like mentioned, Gohan didn't think Cell had grown that powerful,.so it's possible he didn't mount the expected defense to face such attack. SPC was still easily.desintegrated and torn apart once Gohan did output his full power. They weren't that close.

 

[VampireWicked]

Gohan not being able to access SS2 at will would explain this. Him saying he was unable to get angry to the extent he did against Cell heavily alludes to this.

Against Kibito, he'd only recently seen the girl he loved almost get beaten to death, so he had enough fuel for the fire. Against Dabura, quite a lot of time had passed and the drive Gohan had to focus his rage would have severely waned.

I agree, that's why i said it

Also this would fit in with the fact of Gohan not training from PerfectCell to the Buu arc, so his overall PowerLevel would drop.

That said.

If Gohan needs to rely on a RageBoost to gain access to AscendedSaiyan then that just pushes the fact that much more towards his lack of training in between the PerfectCell Games & Buu arc as Goku & Vegeta manages AscendedSaiyan without the need of a RageBoost.

And Vegeta stating he could've defeated Dabura at that time only strengthen his latter statement of him & Goku being more powerful than AscendedSaiyan Teen Gohan vs PerfectCell.

So either way AscendedSaiyan or not, Adult Gohan vs Dabura, Adult Gohan is much weaker than his Teen self & that's the entire point conveyed.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I don't think he necessarily needs to state that. He didn't know Vegeta had SSJ2 -- hadn't confirmed that -- and hence was surprised at realising such. It doesn't imply he was simply a SSJ. His surprise may also stem from the fact that their SSJ2 was on a different level compared to his one.

He'd already heard Vegeta chide him at least once at how weak he'd gotten and how Vegeta should've just dealt with Dabura himself, not to mention Vegeta having already questioned how things would go between them at the early stages of the arc. If Gohan was indeed SS2 against Dabura, the former was all he needed to know Vegeta had the form, whilst the latter makes it even more apparent as there's no way Vegeta would feel satisfied winning against a Gohan who was holding back his strongest form.

That's true. However, comparing Dabura to Perfect Cell's full power would be the most suiting comparison given the info we have.

From what information we have, SPC should factor in just as much so if he isn't the benchmark form for Dabura, the question of which level of Cell Goku was referring to can definitely be called into question.

Dabura could barely damage Gohan, while the Cell who fought Goku could still inflict some sort of damage (given the blood) on a Gohan confirmed to be much stronger....

Cell was only stated to have increased his speed, once the first attacks failed to connect. His power output was still the same, and that'd be the means of comparison Goku had.

Yet his feat, combined with Gohan's statement and Vegeta's reaction to Gohan's Ki confirming the latter, all point to Cell increasing his power as well. It makes little sense for someone to be made to bleed significantly from someone that should be no challenge for them in terms of power from every other fight the series had shown thus far, especially when Cell later showed the durability to take Gohan's kicks fairly well.

And this was AFTER Goku realised Dabura was A LOT stronger than he had forethought. So he had to have some level of Cell in his head even below the one who fought him, rendering the comparison even more useless.

Goku said that in response to Dabura's magic, something completely separate from their Ki. His statement was just him saying Dabura was a far more difficult opponent to deal with than he initially thought.

What does the comparison even tell, besides? That Dabura is about as strong as Cell... Even though he isn't on Cell's level at all?

Makes about as much sense as Dabura being as strong as Cell's peak, which isn't leagues behind SS2 CG Gohan, despite Dabura being trash to pre-Majin Vegeta and CG Gohan being not much weaker than post-Majin Vegeta and Goku.

We can also resort to some out of universe explanations as to why Gohan was designed as a SSJ1, besides. Maybe AT hadn't yet cemented on his mind what a SSJ2 is, or how it's properly designed.

By that logic, the idea of SS2 for anyone other than Gohan should be up in the air at that point in the series, so then you'd have to go with the possibility of SSJ Goku/Vegeta being so far above Gohan that, if needing to be referring to Cell's peak as the benchmark, should bring their SSJ forms above SPC, of which is quickly proven wrong.

And since Gohan was already established as way weaker than he was years ago and on a level apart compared to Goku and Vegeta, AT decided to also show that visually.

Despite doing the exacr opposite at the Budokai.

We have already seen how off guard attacks can have a higher effect though.

Never to this high an effect though.

And like mentioned, Gohan didn't think Cell had grown that powerful,.so it's possible he didn't mount the expected defense to face such attack.

He still didn't act as though it was "far more" than he thought and had heard Cell say he'd powered up similarly to what Gohan had. Whatever his estimations were, I severely doubt they were grossly off the mark.

Also, Cell states he's done "playing around" in the very next panel, so regardless of what Gohan's estimations were, the statements still line up with the feats.

SPC was still easily.desintegrated and torn apart once Gohan did output his full power. They weren't that close.

Thanks to Vegeta's distraction breaking Cell's concentration. An instant like that in a situation between two great powers like them would prove crucial.

 

[ahill1]

He'd already heard Vegeta chide him at least once at how weak he'd gotten and how Vegeta should've just dealt with Dabura himself, not to mention Vegeta having already questioned how things would go between them at the early stages of the arc. If Gohan was indeed SS2 against Dabura, the former was all he needed to know Vegeta had the form, whilst the latter makes it even more apparent as there's no way Vegeta would feel satisfied winning against a Gohan who was holding back his strongest form.

He also saw how Vegeta stated he and Goku are now stronger than Gohan having already experienced his SSJ2 transformation at the Budokai. So if he didn't infere Vegeta had SSJ2 from that, it stands a reason he wouldn't have realised it from Vegeta admitting superiority to Dabura. He saw a glimpse of Goku's SSJ2 when he turned into one vs Yakon, but still remained apparently uncertain at Vegeta possessing the form.

From what information we have, SPC should factor in just as much so if he isn't the benchmark form for Dabura, the question of which level of Cell Goku was referring to can definitely be called into question.

We know that a comparison between Dabura and SPC shouldn't work, probably, as Cell wans't that far away from Gohan. It wouldn't work with the level Cell used against Goku either, that level being high enough to prevent Gohan from saving his friends from the Cell Juniors. Therefore, you either have Goku initially comparing Dabura to Cell standing around in the ring (making the comparison even more useless) or presume the comparison was in regards to Cell in his perfect form, which would make sense given how far away he was from Gohan SSJ2, hence Dabura being way stronger than full power Perfect Cell and yet no match for SSJ2 Teen Gohan making the most sense.

Yet his feat, combined with Gohan's statement and Vegeta's reaction to Gohan's Ki confirming the latter, all point to Cell increasing his power as well.

Why'd his feat point out to Cell increasing his power alongside his speed? All it means is that Gohan SSJ (Cell Games) couldn't really soundly tank the power Cell used to battle Goku... and that Gonan's speed was probably a little higher than what his battle power would dictate.

Plus, Gohan thinking that Goku was holding back doesn't confirm a big gap between them. Gohan's expectation was Goku being >> himself... if Goku ends up < himself, even if not by an outstanding amount, this would still be holding back in his eyes.

Makes about as much sense as Dabura being as strong as Cell's peak, which isn't leagues behind SS2 CG Gohan, despite Dabura being trash to pre-Majin Vegeta and CG Gohan being not much weaker than post-Majin Vegeta and Goku.

Dabura can't be as strong as Super Perfect Cell -- I agree on that. SPC could still damage Gohan, whereas Dabura could barely inflict damage on a way weaker Gohan.

Dabura can't be compared to the level Cell used to battle Goku -- as referred above, that level was enough to lay damage to SSJ kid Gohan and prevent him from saving his friends. If Dabura were a lot stronger than that, no way a weakened version of SSJ1 Gohan would be holding his own pretty well with him...

... hence, the option that makes the most sense is a comparison with full power Perfect Cell and a scenario in which Gohan was a SSJ2, therein matching Goku's statement of Dabura being way stronger than his first estimations but still on a level a weakened Gohan could fight pretty well.

By that logic, the idea of SS2 for anyone other than Gohan should be up in the air at that point in the series, so then you'd have to go with the possibility of SSJ Goku/Vegeta being so far above Gohan that, if needing to be referring to Cell's peak as the benchmark, should bring their SSJ forms above SPC, of which is quickly proven wrong.

We know when a SSJ appears in the series. Gohan in the CGs is confirmed to have surpassed the SSJ wall... as is Gohan in the Budokai... as is Goku and Vegeta when fighting each other. They are all comfirmed, spelled out instances of SSJ2s.

As for Gohan, there's conflicting information. His design doesn't match how he was written. You are trying to contort the narrative for it to suit the art, whereas I am saying that they aren't a match... and there's no way to claim authority of one over another.

Despite doing the exacr opposite at the Budokai.

In the Budokai he hadn't actually been confirmed as being way weaker though... it's there that we get the confirmation by Vegeta.

Never to this high an effect though.

Which maybe brings them closer...

...Goku SSJ Blue being knocked out nearly unconscious by Sorbet's laser gun comes to mind as an off guard attack really mattering.

Piccolo in the 23rd Budokai couldn't damage Goku with his strongest attack, whereas a mouth blast from a weakened version of his was able to cause that much damage on Goku, all because he didn't mount a defense. It really matters a lot in some cases.

Thanks to Vegeta's distraction breaking Cell's concentration. An instant like that in a situation between two great powers like them would prove crucial.

Which we don't know if had an effect on how easily Cell was taken out. He was only momentarily distracted.

 

[SIAD]

CC explained it completely well that Gohan was just an SSJ.

  I do not understand how some do not understand that Goku was not sure if Vegeta had SSJ2, but he was sure that Vegeta was >> Dabura.

  The difference between Goku / Majin Vegeta over Gohan was not so impressive, as to have its SSJ forms over Gohan SSJ2.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

We know that a comparison between Dabura and SPC shouldn't work, probably, as Cell wans't that far away from Gohan.

Indeed, yet if that isn't the Cell Goku was referring to, and one he should've sensed by all knowledge we've been provided, it calls into question what level he was referring to. I can see the deductive reasoning behind you believing he was referring to FP Perfect Cell, but when he should've had no reason to neither sense nor exclude SPC beyond the reasoning of it not lining up with the scaling (of which I could retort that FP Perfect Cell doesn't line up with the art), it calls the validity of him referring to that specific Cell into question.

Therefore, you either have Goku initially comparing Dabura to Cell standing around in the ring (making the comparison even more useless)

And why would you consider this a more apt reference point than the version of Cell Goku actually fought?

Why'd his feat point out to Cell increasing his power alongside his speed? All it means is that Gohan SSJ (Cell Games) couldn't really soundly tank the power Cell used to battle Goku... and that Gonan's speed was probably a little higher than what his battle power would dictate.

That would contradict the idea of Goku's full power being warm up material by Gohan's standard.

Plus, Gohan thinking that Goku was holding back doesn't confirm a big gap between them. Gohan's expectation was Goku being >> himself... if Goku ends up < himself, even if not by an outstanding amount, this would still be holding back in his eyes.

They made it clear during their conversation that Gohan was using his own power as a benchmark, of which is solidified by Vegeta's reaction when sensing Gohan's Ki compared to his prior scepticism.

Dabura can't be compared to the level Cell used to battle Goku -- as referred above, that level was enough to lay damage to SSJ kid Gohan and prevent him from saving his friends. If Dabura were a lot stronger than that, no way a weakened version of SSJ1 Gohan would be holding his own pretty well with him...

Let's assume for a moment that Cell indeed didn't increase his power at all as you suggest. That would still be a case of Gohan putting up no resistance throughout the majority of his fight with Cell compared to him being completely on guard against Dabura. Not exactly a fair comparison.

As for Gohan, there's conflicting information. His design doesn't match how he was written. You are trying to contort the narrative for it to suit the art, whereas I am saying that they aren't a match... and there's no way to claim authority of one over another.

Wouldn't saying they aren't a match and siding with one solidly over the other be a clear case of claiming precedence and authority over one in favour of the other though?

I'm not saying that the art should take precedence, but it shouldn't be completely ignored either. His design, coupled with a few choice statements (The SSJ limit one and Goku's reaction to Vegeta mentioned in the OP) as well as conflicting evidence in regard to Gohan being SS2 (ie. The Daizenshuu) would all point to him being SSJ.

In the Budokai he hadn't actually been confirmed as being way weaker though... it's there that we get the confirmation by Vegeta.

Yet if art were meant to convey how impressive he was, his stature would've been taken away after Vegeta's statement. It wasn't.

...Goku SSJ Blue being knocked out nearly unconscious by Sorbet's laser gun comes to mind as an off guard attack really mattering.

I think we can both agree that taking Super's treatment of the capabilities of weaker fighters, gaps, power ups and the like can't be seen as solid evidence when it comes to discussing the series' original run.

Piccolo in the 23rd Budokai couldn't damage Goku with his strongest attack, whereas a mouth blast from a weakened version of his was able to cause that much damage on Goku, all because he didn't mount a defense.

Both were heavily fatigued at that point though, with Goku having just taken Piccolo's strongest attack and mounted a strong offence to help deliver a finishing blow.

Which we don't know if had an effect on how easily Cell was taken out. He was only momentarily distracted.

We don't see him turn back to focusing on Gohan until it's too late, which would suggest it really did matter.

That, and there's also good evidence for the "Rage Boost" argument as well.

 

[GSM123]

We obviously have vastly different views on the story so I feel no need to continue this. You aren’t going to stop me from believing what I believe.

“Is this really implied in the story?”

Yup. There is no 1 way to view the story.

There are multiple ways to view anything, but when writting the story, Toriyama only had a single intended interpretation. I don't want to stop you from thinking what you thinking, rather I'm trying to have a proper debate about what such intended interpretation might have been.

That would be assuming it was a fact Goku was referring to Cell's FP Perfect or Super Perfect form. If we were doing so for the latter, a large gap between SPC and Cell Games SS2 Gohan would be necessary, despite Cell having become strong enough to be confident against someone who stomped him prior and an attack intended to kill a weakened Vegeta being enough to heavily damage Gohan in a way no off-guard attack from a supposedly far weaker opponent never being replicated during the manga's original run.

I don't think the level Goku was refering to really matters, given his statement on the limits. The only way for him to get stronger after the Rosat is by transforming.

A character's estimations of their limits can be proven to be completely wrong. Kuririn believed he'd never stack up to the likes of Reacoom, yet became strong enough to be helpful against Freeza (at least 75k according to V-Jump). Vegeta believed his final Zenkai on Namek was his limit and by the time of the Boo Arc, Goku found the idea of someone being brought beyond their natural limit something common.
The idea of there being no true limits is perhaps the most common theme of the franchise. No need to take Goku's opinion in that scene as fact.

I think there's a difference here, CC. Kuririn and Vegeta made their claims when having their backs against the wall, when facing enemies who'd far surpass even their powered up selves. On the other hand, Goku willfully left the Rosat even earlier and refused to train more. Goku's claim was one made out of acceptance of his limits, rather than despair. You can see this difference in the way they react: Vegeta's shaking and starts to cry after making his claim, whilst Goku was calm and composed with the idea of hitting his limits. It's also worth noting he's only noted as having surpassed Gohan once he goes Super Saiyan.

I was feeling that there were limits on mere strength, so I was generally always struggling to come up with something. I actually hadn’t planned Goku’s Super Saiyan transformation at all. Then, when I came up with the idea of the Super Saiyan, in order to show that Goku had gained a massive power-up all at once, I thought “there’s no choice but to change his form, too”.

The key words this time, “God of Destruction Beerus” and “Super Saiyan God”, were suggestions from the scriptwriter, but they were good ideas for presenting a crisis for the main characters, who had grown so strong that they’d reached a point where there was nothing higher.

Why did you choose this period?
The fact is, I thought, “Man, I really made everyone old in the last chapter of the manga”. I even gave Vegeta a mustache (laughs). So, I chose this period because everyone had got to maximum strength. A few years after the “Majin Boo arc”, and before Pan’s birth.

With regards to the time frame of “for the first time in 39 years”, the movie’s setting is after the defeat of Majin Boo, and also prior to the final chapter. Why is it that you chose this period?
When I decided, “For this movie, let’s go with the whole cast!” I thought, “What era would be best?” If it’s a few years after the “Majin Boo arc”, then almost all the cast members are at MAX strength….

Why did you set the story’s time frame after the defeat of Majin Boo?
It’s when all the members [of the cast] were at their strongest, so I thought it was just right. If it were at the time of the final chapter, Goku would be heading off somewhere with Oob, after all.

Why did you set the movie a few years after the battle with Majin Boo?
It’s because I thought that period would be best in terms of timing, because at that time, everyone’s reached nearly perfect strength

I’m also responsible for setting the timeframe after the Majin Boo arc. I thought a time where the whole cast is together, and Goku & co. are at nearly perfect strength, would be best.

People say that “the story” implies that he was SSJ2. While the writing is downright atrocious in that section (I tend to believe that SSJ2 Budokai Gohan was retconned/AT forgot), the story is a manga.. The artwork is just as much of a part of the story as the dialogue. I simply can’t say that Gohan is SSJ2 while Goku/Vegeta had the correct auras in the same chapter.

I don't think the idea of a retcon/AT forgetting it is even remotely possible. The characters still mention Gohan's show off from the Budokai quite a lot.

The artwork is indeed important, the issue is taking subjective interpretations above objective evidence. Sparks are never stated to be the defining trait of SSJ2, to a point where people from both forms have had and lacked them. Sometimes SSJ2 is even refered to as merely "Super Saiyan". If the forms are close enough to a point where they can share the same name, why can't they also share the same traits, which is something Toriyama admitedly cared less about?

I'd say even that's doubtful. We have things such as Gohan saying the high level of damage Goku and Vegeta were dealing was from them fighting on a level "Far above Super Saiyan." If he was doing the same against Dabura, he'd have worded that statement a lot differently.

He did word a bit differently that you might remember it, CC.
Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P6.1-2
Context: after Majin Boo quickly reaches full power
Kaioshin: “Th-that’s impossible…Wh-why has Goku’s damage energy [filled it up] already…!?”
Gohan: “…I-I know…! Father is fighting at a level that has further surpassed Super Saiyan…Vegeta probably is too…If two incredible powers like that clash, th-the damage is astounding too…!”
He said Goku and Vegeta had "Further surpassed SSJ", implying that Gohan himself was already on a state beyond SSJ, but not as much as Goku and Vegeta.

 

[ahill1]

Indeed, yet if that isn't the Cell Goku was referring to, and one he should've sensed by all knowledge we've been provided, it calls into question what level he was referring to. I can see the deductive reasoning behind you believing he was referring to FP Perfect Cell, but when he should've had no reason to neither sense nor exclude SPC beyond the reasoning of it not lining up with the scaling (of which I could retort that FP Perfect Cell doesn't line up with the art), it calls the validity of him referring to that specific Cell into question.

While I agree that the comparison would already be losing its merit by not being in regards to Perfect Cell at full power, it goes back to what I said: no other Cell can fit as nicely as full power Perfect Cell. It doesn't revolve around Goku having to compare Dabura to the most powerful version of Cell, but to which version of Cell would fit the best with the narrative.

Cell managed to get Gohan in a bear hug with this latter not being able to cut loose. Piccolo even knew someone had to help Gohan right there. Goku also stated that he isn't sure whether Cell was hiding more power and yet his later statements tell us he was clinging on Gohan's latent powers since the beginning.

Even when Gohan absolutely wanted to beat the shit outta Cell and prevent his friends from being killed, he was still easily kicked out into the ground by Cell who hadn't even have to exert himself that much:

Spoiler

So Gohan is at most equal to that Cell. He isn't stronger.

We'd have to assume Cell increased his power alongside his speed so the comparison with the Cell who fought Goku would make sense. And his statement seems quite clear... Cell singles out his speed. He says he is going to go all out, but only in speed. Power isn't mentioned. No one notices a power increase either.

Gohan comes practically uncastched from Dabura's blast and even had the advantabe in the hand to hand combat. So the comparison with a suppressed Cell wouldn't fit with Gohan being a SSJ. Even if we assume Cell increased his power when fighting Gohan, the power up would have to be pretty big considering Dabura's later stated to be >>> Goku's initial estimations. So a way weaker Gohan is apparently keeping up with an opponent way stronger than the one who could beat him into submission 7 years earlier...

And why would you consider this a more apt reference point than the version of Cell Goku actually fought?

See above.

That would contradict the idea of Goku's full power being warm up material by Gohan's standard.

That wouldn't. Gohan expects Goku to be >>> himself. If he only ends up > himself, it'd still appear as Goku was holding back in his eyes. It doesn't tell us Gohan is greatly above Goku.

They made it clear during their conversation that Gohan was using his own power as a benchmark, of which is solidified by Vegeta's reaction when sensing Gohan's Ki compared to his prior scepticism.

I don't disagree he was using his own power as a benchmark. The point is, he expects Goku to be the top dog amongst them all. If he sawa himself as capable of accomplishing even bigger feats than Goku, then he wouldn't find Goku to be incredible. It isn't telling us that there's a big gap between father and son... only that son isn't surprised by father's percormance because he expected more from him.., he expected him to be the strongest.

Let's assume for a moment that Cell indeed didn't increase his power at all as you suggest. That would still be a case of Gohan putting up no resistance throughout the majority of his fight with Cell compared to him being completely on guard against Dabura. Not exactly a fair comparison.

When Gohan put up resistence, it still didn't matter:

Spoiler

Wouldn't saying they aren't a match and siding with one solidly over the other be a clear case of claiming precedence and authority over one in favour of the other though?

I am not siding with one over the other. I fully acknowledge that the art is in the SSJ1 favor. I haven't been arguing that he looks like a SSJ2... he doesn't. I've merely been pointing out that it still doesn't fall in line with the narrative... that narratively Gohan is very well made out to be a SSJ2.

Even in Super, we have a Trunks who mastered the Z sword, wielding it as well as Gohan did, being still not effective against Dabura.

Yet if art were meant to convey how impressive he was, his stature would've been taken away after Vegeta's statement. It wasn't.

It's there that he was confirmed as way weaker than before. There. At the Budokai. He was still shown with consistent sparks before Vegeta's remark. It'd be silly to expect them to disappear right after Vegeta's dialogue. But a while later, with AT having already cemented how weakened Gohan was, it makes sense he'd want to show that visually. Not saying that's what happened... but could very well be an out of universe explanation for why Gohan was visually shown this way.

That, and there's also good evidence for the "Rage Boost" argument as well.

If we are factoring in the rage boost, then we can easily argue SPC was very outclassed by the final peak of rage... and that that was the power Vegeta was comparing teen Gohan to. It'd also work with Cell showing confidence against Gohan, but being still fairly outclassed, as he didn't factore a rage boost functioning as a further catalyst.