Goku 3000 Kiri

[FeatsofPower]

The anime shows it is not maxed out. Nothing indicates Goku wasn't at full power, so we should probably assume he is. The anime seems to portray Gohan more as a Super Saiyan 2.

 

[Papasmurf]

It was Galu's non-FP rating imo. SSJ Goten and Trunks still could power up a decent amount before they could reach the full power of their SSJ forms, so when Galu's intent was just to show Yakon he can light up the battlefield he shouldn't be FP yet.

 

[SSJ2]

The anime shows it is not maxed out. Nothing indicates Goku wasn't at full power, so we should probably assume he is. The anime seems to portray Gohan more as a Super Saiyan 2.

If you believe in multipliers then the fact that Goku's SSJ2 was suppressed would suggest that his Super Saiyan was as well.

 

[FeatsofPower]

It was Galu's non-FP rating imo. SSJ Goten and Trunks still could power up a decent amount before they could reach the full power of their SSJ forms, so when Galu's intent was just to show Yakon he can light up the battlefield he shouldn't be FP yet.

The narrative is that it is Goku's full power. Dabura proclaims superiority based on that rating. If it was significantly less than full power, Goku would never need a Super Saiyan 2 burst to overwhelm Yakon. So it should represent the lion's share of Goku's full power as a Super Saiyan.

If you believe in multipliers then the fact that Goku's SSJ2 was suppressed would suggest that his Super Saiyan was as well.

I don't believe Super Saiyan 2 can be suppressed. As mentioned above, if Goku is heavily suppressed as a Super Saiyan, there's no need to transform into Super Saiyan 2 at all.

 

[Papasmurf]

The narrative is that it is Goku's full power. Dabura proclaims superiority based on that rating. If it was significantly less than full power, Goku would never need a Super Saiyan 2 burst to overwhelm Yakon. So it should represent the lion's share of Goku's full power as a Super Saiyan.

Dabura's comment about 3000 being lower than his Ki was only in the anime. In the manga we can infer that's the case since Dabura says no one in the world can match him, but that's really it. Also Babidi was not reading Galu's Ki on his meter when Galu started pumping Yakon full of light Ki in earnest. If we go by SSJ Gohan fighting Dabura and not SSJ2, it'd probably be a combination of SSJ Goku not being full power and Dabura hiding a lot of his power similar to Perfect Cell pre-SSJ2 Gohan.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Dabura says that he's superior to 3,000 as you just said and by so much he thinks he can take on 3 3,000 kiri fighters at the same time. Dabura wanted all the smoke. He's gotta be beyond Super Saiyan tier in this instance.

This sequence would show that Gohan has to be a Super Saiyan 2, since Dabura is stronger than a Super Saiyan who is superior to Gohan's Super Saiyan.

Obviously this logic is circular though.

 

[Papasmurf]

Dabura logically would have to be over 3000 Kiri, but he's also shown to be illogically and delusionally arrogant since SSJ2 Gohan filled up less than half of Boo's meter and so Boo should be able to kill him with ease just based on the Ki he absorbed to become free from his shell alone, and he thought Boo was a huge joke. Him calling Gohan "trash" is bullshit too when SSJ2 Gohan >> SSJ Goku/Vegeta and even if we're being generous as possible with Dabura's power ranking he should not be able to defeat Gohan with ease. He got intimidated by Gohan's full power Kamehameha and rescued Babidi from it in panic too, showing he's full of shit.

I personally prefer to have Gohan SSJ against him since that's what AT's art presents, but in terms of the anime I'm willing to concede he appears SSJ2 there. It seems like Gohan went SSJ to outmatch Dabura's initial power level, and then went and powered up further to SSJ2 when goading him to release his true power (anime-wise).

 

[FeatsofPower]

Agreed, Dabura's arrogance has lead him to a false sense of confidence in those scenarios. However, the evidence points towards Dabura's confidence regarding his ability vs. Super Saiyans being legit. Badibi isn't overly concerned about Dabura's chances until the Super Saiyan 2 burst.

If both Dabura and Badibi are agreeing with Dabura's chance and it's backed by a scouter, I think we should take this one to the bank.

Remember, Badibi has no confidence in Dabura's ability to defeat Gohan easily nor defeat Majin Buu.

So the power estimates that Badibi and Dabura disagree on, we can safely discard, but the ones they agree on, that aren't contradicted (granted the SSJ art could be a contradiction), prove that Dabura > 3,000 Kiri is legit.

 

[Papasmurf]

Yeah if you go by story beats Gohan being SSJ2 makes more sense, since Kaioshit says Kibito can't fathom the kind of power that the Saiyans showed while he was dead (and Kaioshit didn't even see SSJ2 Goku/was already near death when Majin Vegeta arrived to fight Boo), but at the same time Goku sees Vegeta turn SSJ2 and gets shell-shocked as if he thought his SSJ2 was a game changer, and Dabura also thought Vegeta would be able to kill Goku and Gohan even without seeing his SSJ2 form.

The whole ship is just a mess, in the manga I have Gohan SSJ there and say SSJ Majin Vegeta > full power Dabura, in the anime I have Gohan SSJ2 there and just headcanon the implications of SSJ Majin Vegeta being considered relevant to be due to Gohan lacking a rage boost against Dabura or something like that.

 

[SSJ2]

I don't believe Super Saiyan 2 can be suppressed. As mentioned above, if Goku is heavily suppressed as a Super Saiyan, there's no need to transform into Super Saiyan 2 at all.

Sure, but it was implied that we didn’t see all of Goku’s power when he transformed against Yakon. Vegeta only confirmed that he was better than Cell Games Gohan when he fully transformed.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Yeah if you go by story beats Gohan being SSJ2 makes more sense, since Kaioshit says Kibito can't fathom the kind of power that the Saiyans showed while he was dead (and Kaioshit didn't even see SSJ2 Goku/was already near death when Majin Vegeta arrived to fight Boo), but at the same time Goku sees Vegeta turn SSJ2 and gets shell-shocked as if he thought his SSJ2 was a game changer, and Dabura also thought Vegeta would be able to kill Goku and Gohan even without seeing his SSJ2 form.

The whole ship is just a mess, in the manga I have Gohan SSJ there and say SSJ Majin Vegeta > full power Dabura, in the anime I have Gohan SSJ2 there and just headcanon the implications of SSJ Majin Vegeta being considered relevant to be due to Gohan lacking a rage boost against Dabura or something like that.

Yeah, that's probably the best approach. Since the Super anime seems to follow at least some parts of Kai over the manga, I'm willing to dip into some filler or anime "correction" to tie this canon together.

Super keeps the Ginyu Frog thing, Kid Buu hax and why not make Gohan a Super Saiyan 2 while we are at it?

 

[Papasmurf]

Yeah, that's probably the best approach. Since the Super anime seems to follow at least some parts of Kai over the manga, I'm willing to dip into some filler or anime "correction" to tie this canon together.

Super keeps the Ginyu Frog thing, Kid Buu hax and why not make Gohan a Super Saiyan 2 while we are at it?

Tbh the anime writers don't even seem to remember/factor in the shit they added into the anime into their own canon, because in the Perfect Files it says Goku hardly ever used SSJ2, only using it against Vegeta and showing it to Fat Boo (which is only the case in the manga since he also used it to fight against Kid Boo for an entire episode in the anime), plus recent V-Jump entries I can only assume were written by people who work with Toei/Shueisha/Bandai said Ultimate Gohan >> SSj3 Goku even though Goku was on par with Kid Boo in the anime and that Boo is the strongest Boo as stated by Kibitoshin.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Tbh the anime writers don't even seem to remember/factor in the shit they added into the anime into their own canon, because in the Perfect Files it says Goku hardly ever used SSJ2, only using it against Vegeta and showing it to Fat Boo (which is only the case in the manga since he also used it to fight against Kid Boo for an entire episode in the anime), plus recent V-Jump entries I can only assume were written by people who work with Toei/Shueisha/Bandai said Ultimate Gohan >> SSj3 Goku even though Goku was on par with Kid Boo in the anime and that Boo is the strongest Boo as stated by Kibitoshin.

There seems to be consistent characteristics of Gohan being a Super Saiyan 2 in the anime. Gohan has paler skin, hair is very spiky and so on. GT is irrelevant to this discussion.

Goku is clearly above Gohan I'd say in the anime and this hax seems carried on into Super.

Super Saiyan Goku (Post Restoration) is sensed on the Lookout by the entire Dragon Team. That's a Super Saiyan 3 level feat.

It's like this...

Goku (Kaioshin Realm, Post Fusion) > Gohan > Goku (Pre Kaioshin Realm)

 

[Papasmurf]

Maybe in the anime canon, experiencing Potara Fusion increases your base abilities. It's kind of telling that Goku became able to stalemate a Hit stronger than the one he fought in the ToP in regular SSJB despite needing Kaioken x 10 in the U6 arc, after experiencing a second fusion as Vegetto. Goku isn't really shown to be training much post-U6 either, spending a few days just recovering from the side effects of SSJB Kaioken and stuff. Although he probably got a Zenkai against Black due to getting stabbed. At the same time the Zenkai boost probably isn't much since Galu appeare to be weaker than Vegeta when they fought the Zamasus just before they fused to Vegetto.

Also even though this is filler, SSJ Goku is shown to be able to nearly hold his own against Boo's illusion of Ultimate Gohan and Vegeta doesn't get butt raped by SSJ3 Gotenks and Piccolo, even though Goku says the illusions have the power of the real thing.

So the anime power chain seems to go Kid Boo >= Gohan-Boo/SSJ3 Galu (post-Potara) >> SSJ2 Galu (post-Potara) > Boo inside his own body > Ultimate Gohan > SSJ Goku/Vegeta >= SSJ3 Gotenks

 

[Boo Brand Milk]

The kiri thing was insight that everything we knew about power levels, scaling, and multipliers were utter garbage.

 

[Papasmurf]

1.3 million >>>>>> SSJ Vegetto

 

[xmysticgohanx]

His casual suppressed SSJ power

that way I can follow vjump when it said 1 kiri = 50k.

Yakon would be 40 million. I can have puipui at 1 kiri just for fun, so 50,000.
It also fits with Darbra not being scared of 3000