Goku and Vegeta [Super Manga]

[ahill1]

So, we know that in the Zamasu saga there were some implications that Vegeta's lower forms were way above Goku's. For instance, Trunks SSJ2 was said to be about as strong as Goku SSJ3, yet we saw how the former was absolutely no match for base Black, which implies base Black is considerably above Goku SSJ3.

But then, Vegeta SSJ2 easily tools Black SSJ, who hadn't a chance to match Vegeta until he received that huge Zenkai upon being healed by the future Zamasu, which gave him enough power to surpass even Vegeta SSJB (*chuckles*).

So, all in all, we'd have a Vegeta SSJ2 >> Black SSJ >> Black >> Goku SSJ3.

And then, we know that Vegeta, upon training in the RoSaT got strong enough to fend off Rosé Black's attacks while just in his God form, and completely overwhelm him in Blue. Meanwhile, Goku CSSJB was powerful enough to the point of fighting on par with Merged Zamasu, who was far beyond post RoSaT Blue Vegeta's ability. Vegeta also reached the CSSJB and was easily one-shotted by Beerus right after, the latter whom was slightly weaker than Vegetto SSJB, to which it then seems that Vegeta CSSJB wasn't above Goku's.

So, I'd like to ask how does Vegeta compare to Goku in their lower forms... can SSJ2 Vegeta completely tool Goku SSJ3 now? Could Goku SSJ3, at the time they were on Trunks' future be able to easily handle Black SSJ like Vegeta was doing? Also, did this apparent hax given to Vegeta's lower forms influence his Blue form?

Furthermore, is it maybe possible that Vegeta SSJ2 is that far above Goku SSJ3 due to Vegeta's angry SSJ2 -- which happened on Beerus saga -- being kept as a constant thing, in which we'd have now Vegeta SSJ2 as far above Goku SSJ3? But then, if Vegeta SSJ2 is that far above Goku SSJ3, and yet they are implied to be on par with each other while on their utmost capabilities (SSJB), what would be Vegeta's SSJB multiplier? As far as the Tournament with the U6 goes, Goku SSJ could keep up -- even though being at a disadvantage in the end -- with suppressed Hitto, despite this latter being strong enough so his timeskip powers could allow him to stop less than 10% Blue Vegeta, which implies the Blue's gap over SSJ isn't MUCH MORE than 10x...

I can't do a decent power scaling list for the Super manga as long as I don't find a solution to this unresolved package. So please, do help me!

 

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

I don't even understand what the problem is. Vegeta's SSJ2 is stronger than Goku's SSJ3 as shown during BOG. Vegeta didn't get any stronger in the ROSAT in the manga. Him and Goku are the same in equal forms.

I don't know why you assumed that "less than 10%" means "close to 10%". Anything less than 10% fits the statement, even .00000001%. There isn't any reason to extrapolate anything. Put Vegeta's level at any quantity below 10% and call it a day.

Seems about as mindboggling as people assuming that "perhaps stronger" means "barely stronger" despite "perhaps" not being a quantity measurement, nor a synonym for any similar quantitative term.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think while training with Trunks, Vegeta learned the Enhanced SSJ2 and on the top of it added some God Ki/Rage to get that extra advantage. We can't assume anything about it being permanent or not since that's the only time he used Super Saiyan 2 after BoGs. His SSJ2 should still be below SSJG btw.

As for his Rosat section, it's clear he had gains. He went from humiliated by Black as a SSJB to going toe to toe as a SSJG. I just think Goku somehow closed the gap: Be it on Mafuba training, CSSJB magically buffing him, anything. He and Vegeta are portrayed as equals. Toyotaro may change this and do go with Vegeta >> Goku, but that's very, very unlikely.

On the 10% thing, no reason to assume it can be any number. If it's like 0.01% why doesn't the character say "Less than 1%?" Anything from 6-9% works IMO, below that i think it would be noted (Below 5% etc).

 

[ahill1]

On the 10% thing, no reason to assume it can be any number. If it's like 0.01% why doesn't the character say "Less than 1%?" Anything from 6-9% works IMO, below that i think it would be noted (Below 5% etc).

Agreed, it seems like an understatement if it's supposed to be something like 1%... it's like the people who argue Future #17 was like at 20% against 2 arms Gohan SSJ, which just doesn't come naturally when you read "less than half of my power", as well as 1% shouldn't come naturally when a character says "less than 10%". If it were 1%, Whis should have said less than 5% or something along those lines that would indicate Vegeta couldn't access anything close to 10%.

 

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Vegeta didn't get any gains and he didn't go toe to toe with Black as an SSJG. That literally goes against what Goku himself stated as well as Black stating that Vegeta didn't get any stronger.

Below 10% means below 10%. Saying that Vegeta's power is close to 10% just because Whis stated 10% is conjecture, something that isn't logically justified by the statement itself. You can create more artificial difficulty for yourself if you want. I'll just go with the direct logical meaning of the statement, in which anything less than 10% fits.

This is like saying that Kefla is less than 100x stronger than Caulifla and Kale since Vados only stated that Kefla was "tens of times stronger".
Your argument would look something like "If Kefla was hundreds of times stronger, Vados would've said it".

You're just extrapolating the statement in a meaningless way even though the definition of the statement doesn't imply what you're saying. Again, pointless.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Vegeta didn't get any gains and he didn't go toe to toe with Black as an SSJG. That literally goes against what Goku himself stated as well as Black stating that Vegeta didn't get any stronger.

He didn't go toe to toe, but was able to fend off Black better than he did previously without using SSB in bursts. He wouldn't have bothered using the Rosat in the U6 Arc if he'd gained no power from it.

Below 10% means below 10%. Saying that Vegeta's power is close to 10% just because Whis stated 10% is conjecture, something that isn't logically justified by the statement itself. You can create more artificial difficulty for yourself if you want. I'll just go with the direct logical meaning of the statement, in which anything less than 10% fits.

And again, specifying it to be below 10% rather than 1% or even less would make little sense if that were the case. Should that have been so, it would make far more sense for Whis to state something along the lines of it being "an atom of his true power" or something similar, yet that clearly wasn't the case.

This is like saying that Kefla is less than 100x stronger than Caulifla and Kale since Vados only stated that Kefla was "tens of times stronger".
Your argument would look something like "If Kefla was hundreds of times stronger, Vados would've said it".

Which just shows Kefla isn't 100x stronger than Caulifla.

You're just extrapolating the statement in a meaningless way even though the definition of the statement doesn't imply what you're saying. Again, pointless.

It's called using common sense, something you lack in each one of your posts.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

I treat SSJ2 as a form that varies with the user. Likewise, at Cell/Buu Sagas, i give Gohan's SSJ2
a higher multiplier than Vegeta's/Goku's.

 

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Vegeta got no boost because the story said so. Period. The only thing he did in the ROSAT was master switching from red to blue.

Again, less than 10% is less than 10%. If you can't understand that, then it isn't my problem. You're shoehorning implications that aren't there.

You can't talk about me not having common sense while labeling Kefla as less than 100x Caulifla when Base Kefla>>>>>>SSJ2 Caulifla and she multiplied her base power over 100x with her transformations. Again, "tens of times" can mean any multiple of tens of times. It doesn't mean less than 100.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Vegeta got no boost because the story said so. Period. The only thing he did in the ROSAT was master switching from red to blue.

So you're basically saying he'd take a training route that would offer no boost to his power whatsoever because? Yeah, great logic.

Again, less than 10% is less than 10%. If you can't understand that, then it isn't my problem. You're shoehorning implications that aren't there.

More like you're ignoring implications in a manner to fit a logic in which the very notion of Whis mentioning 10% at all would be meaningless.

You can't talk about me not having common sense while labeling Kefla as less than 100x Caulifla when Base Kefla>>>>>>SSJ2 Caulifla and she multiplied her base power over 100x with her transformations. Again, "tens of times" can mean any multiple of tens of times. It doesn't mean less than 100.

The SSJ multiplier in the ToP has been suggested to be vastly lower than in any previous arcs, given the bare minimum of difference the SSJ form made in fights such as Goku VS Trio de Dangers or Vegeta VS Ribrianne. That said, it's very easy to have the gap between the base Saiyans and SSG Goku/Base Kefla be less than 100x.

If someone was over 100x stronger than another character in question, "Over a hundred times" would be stated rather than "tens of times". Seldom do characters make vague statements. It's simple as that.