Goku MSSJB (Manga) vs Goku SSJB (ToP)?

[SIAD]

Who is more powerful and who wins?

 

[Flame]

Complete Blue Goku is way stronger than Blue Goku in the anime. Complete Blue Goku stomps.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

I doubt that ToP Goku is stronger than Merged Zamasu who MSSjinB Goku's equal.

 

[freezamite]

Anime Goku wins. Manga Goku is smarter and has his MSSJB, but anime SSJB Goku has Toei with him which means that can be pierced dozens of times and he will still prevail through the power of friendship and all that. In the next scene, of course, he would do worse than Yamcha against some enemies if the plot somehow required to make Yamcha relevant again so nobody wins in the end because Toei.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

In terms of powerscaling, Anime Galu wins due to being about 10x stronger than his U6 Arc self, which Manga MSSB Galu/Merged Zamasu don't need to be much more than 2-3x stronger than.

 

[Spiral-Force]

In a no holds barred fight I'd give it to manga Goku since he can use Hakai, and has much better stamina reserves due to his mastery of the blue form.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

In a no holds barred fight I'd give it to manga Goku since he can use Hakai, and has much better stamina reserves due to his mastery of the blue form.

I'd disagree on the stamina part. MSSB Galu only seemed to be capable of containing such power for about a minute, whereas Anime SSB is nowhere near as draining as it's manga counterpart.

 

[Spiral-Force]

I'd disagree on the stamina part. MSSB Galu only seemed to be capable of containing such power for about a minute, whereas Anime SSB is nowhere near as draining as it's manga counterpart.

MSSJB allows for the user to access their complete power with little to no power loss due to how the aura is sealed within the body. If you notice, Goku was able to fight all-out against Merged Zamasu without any significant energy reduction for many panels. Trunks even reinforces this by saying Goku's attacks aren't letting up whilst the latter was in the middle of combat. Goku did seem to eventually have trouble keeping the aura in his body, but the energy situation only got incredibly dire when he focused all of his power to use Hakai. Now that Goku has experience with MSSJB, I think that he'd be able to manage it better when entering it again, and would exceed his anime counterparts' stamina reserves within the form. Speaking of the anime, Whis put emphasis on the Blue form's energy drain, and the latest preview featuring SSJG Goku implies that the anime is going down the route that the manga took of treating the God form as relevant partly due to the Blue form's drain.

 

[KyuubiAhri]

In terms of powerscaling, Anime Galu wins due to being about 10x stronger than his U6 Arc self, which Manga MSSB Galu/Merged Zamasu don't need to be much more than 2-3x stronger than.

but what if zamasu arc goku is also 10x stronger than U6 goku?

 

[Papasmurf]

There's no need for him to have gained that much power in the manga, especially when 3 years in the RoSaT only gave him rather minimal gains.

 

[Big Ank]

I'd disagree on the stamina part. MSSB Galu only seemed to be capable of containing such power for about a minute, whereas Anime SSB is nowhere near as draining as it's manga counterpart.

MSSJB allows for the user to access their complete power with little to no power loss due to how the aura is sealed within the body. If you notice, Goku was able to fight all-out against Merged Zamasu without any significant energy reduction for many panels. Trunks even reinforces this by saying Goku's attacks aren't letting up whilst the latter was in the middle of combat. Goku did seem to eventually have trouble keeping the aura in his body, but the energy situation only got incredibly dire when he focused all of his power to use Hakai. Now that Goku has experience with MSSJB, I think that he'd be able to manage it better when entering it again, and would exceed his anime counterparts' stamina reserves within the form. Speaking of the anime, Whis put emphasis on the Blue form's energy drain, and the latest preview featuring SSJG Goku implies that the anime is going down the route that the manga took of treating the God form as relevant partly due to the Blue form's drain.

Whereas there isn't energy loss with the MSSJB, keeping that 'form' is pretty straining, with the aura kind of striving to get off of Goku's body. As such, Goku can't sustain it for too long (even before the hakai he mentioned how he doesn't have much time), and I honestly don't remember SSJ Blue in the anime being a form hard to maintain barring the evidences you mentioned. Also, isn't said the SSJB in the anime is a form that can be controled very well? Or at least that was a theory that everyone seemed to accept.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

SSjinB does drain in the anime as well but that was pointed out very rare like against Hit and the recent episodes.

 

[Jeff Styles]

Whereas there isn't energy loss with the MSSJB, keeping that 'form' is pretty straining, with the aura kind of striving to get off of Goku's body. As such, Goku can't sustain it for too long (even before the hakai he mentioned how he doesn't have much time), and I honestly don't remember SSJ Blue in the anime being a form hard to maintain barring the evidences you mentioned. Also, isn't said the SSJB in the anime is a form that can be controled very well? Or at least that was a theory that everyone seemed to accept.

In their first fight, Hit asked Goku did he forget to transform into Blue. Goku response with the form uses up a lot of stamina.

Spoiler

 

[Spiral-Force]

Whereas there isn't energy loss with the MSSJB, keeping that 'form' is pretty straining, with the aura kind of striving to get off of Goku's body. As such, Goku can't sustain it for too long (even before the hakai he mentioned how he doesn't have much time), and I honestly don't remember SSJ Blue in the anime being a form hard to maintain barring the evidences you mentioned.

He sustained MSSJB for more than 35 pages in a tough, close, full power fight. That's pretty good for his 1st time testing it in battle. In the anime when Goku first used Kaioken on top of SSJB, the success rate of it was stated to be 10%, with failure resulting in an extremely damaged body or death, yet the next time he used Kaioken on top of Blue he could do it at will without such a risk being a factor, so I think his manga counterpart's experience with MSSJB in battle has allowed him to be able to sustain it a lot better now. Even if we don't factor in Goku's post-fight experience, and strictly judge his stamina reserves from the battle, Vegeta expressed that the form fixes the problem of only being able to maintain Blue's full power for a short time:

Hakai is a very powerful technique. Goku focused ALL of his energy in his hand to prepare it, and had to concentrate immensely in order to use it, plus his flow was disrupted when Zamasu grabbed Mai and put her in front of him. All in all, my point here is that the stamina Goku had left before Hakai isn't to be taken for granted.

In the anime, SSJB Goku and Hit's 3rd fight doesn't even take up 4 minutes when you don't count the excessive talking, staredowns, irrelevant scenes, and when they're just standing around, yet both Goku and Hit were maxed out at the end, and the fight wasn't as ferocious as MSSJB Goku and MZ's fight, so it looks like the statement of Whis that I referenced is reinforced through actual combat:

Also, isn't said the SSJB in the anime is a form that can be controled very well? Or at least that was a theory that everyone seemed to accept.

Yeah, Goku said something along those lines against Hit in their first fight. But contextually, he was expressing that his control of Super Saiyan Blue allowed for Kaioken to successfully be combined with it. In the same fight, Goku admitted that Super Saiyan Blue uses a lot of stamina. Overall, anime-wise, it seems that SSJB being a form that drains stamina considerably wasn't the initial intention of the writers, as such wasn't indicated in SSJB Goku's fight with Golden Frieza in the FnF Saga, but it's clearly what they've established for some time now.

 

[Big Ank]

Yeah, but the 10% chance of succedding was said towards the Kaioken on top of SSJB, right? Here the fight is about Goku SSJB from the ToP, not accounting his Kaioken or anything. He maintained that aura inside him for 35 pages, but we don't have too much of a notion of how much that lasted, right? It isn't always possible to calculate the time-frame through the number of pages, with Goku vs Freeza in Namek also lasting for many pages and yet happening in more or less 5 minutes. Freeza was also able to fight at 100% for many pages (maybe not as much as Goku vs MZ), yet his final form was established to have pretty shitty stamina. The fight against MZ could also have happened very fast considering this imo.

In the 1st chapter that Goku showed out his Mastered SSJB, Vegeta already gave us a signal that holding out the blue power within his body could tear him out at any moment and wondered for how long Goku could keep it up, with signals of the blue aura trying to get out of Goku's body, making this later to state that it seems it's soon to be giving this a test run. All which implies that it's something he still has little mastery over, even though this could allow him to fight at a constant 100%.

But my overall point is that I think it's debatable if Goku's anime SSJB stamina is at a bigger disadvantage than Goku's limited time usage of the mastered SSJB in the anime. Whilst I concede it's a fact that SSJB also drain stamina in the anime, it's somewhat doubtful if it's as drastic as its anime counterpart, where it was implied to be something pretty drastic.

 

[Spiral-Force]

Yeah, but the 10% chance of succedding was said towards the Kaioken on top of SSJB, right? Here the fight is about Goku SSJB from the ToP, not accounting his Kaioken or anything.

You missed my point. I'm saying that since Goku could handle SSJB + KK much better the 2nd time than the 1st time, I think that his manga counterpart would be able to handle MSSJB a lot better now due to the experience he had with it in the Zamasu fight. The reason I think this is because both SSJB Kaioken and Mastered SSJB are successful through strength, a calm mind, and excellent ki control.

He maintained that aura inside him for 35 pages, but we don't have too much of a notion of how much that lasted, right? It isn't always possible to calculate the time-frame through the number of pages, with Goku vs Freeza in Namek also lasting for many pages and yet happening in more or less 5 minutes. Freeza was also able to fight at 100% for many pages (maybe not as much as Goku vs MZ), yet his final form was established to have pretty shitty stamina. The fight against MZ could also have happened very fast considering this imo.

If you watch the anime version of the Goku vs Frieza fight on Namek, it feels long in comparison to the manga version, even when you take out the filler, yet 100% Frieza's stamina was also indicated to be crap in that adaptation too. People may think that anime SSJB Goku has more stamina than manga MSSJB Goku because the former's fights 'feel' longer, but as my example of Goku and Hit's 3rd fight shows, Blue Goku's stamina in combat has actually been shown to match what Goku himself and Whis have said about Blue's drain. MSSJB Goku and Zamasu's fight didn't feel short to me because they were going at it for pretty much 99% of several dozen pages, and if we follow an objective standpoint on this, Vegeta basically said that MSSJB tackles the issue of the short use of regular SSJB.

In the 1st chapter that Goku showed out his Mastered SSJB, Vegeta already gave us a signal that holding out the blue power within his body could tear him out at any moment and wondered for how long Goku could keep it up, with signals of the blue aura trying to get out of Goku's body, making this later to state that it seems it's soon to be giving this a test run. All which implies that it's something he still has little mastery over, even though this could allow him to fight at a constant 100%.

Vegeta proposed a possibility, one that could come about if all of the energy is involuntarily released from Goku's body. But as we saw, Goku could still keep the power in him for while after that statement. What Vegeta said is similar to what Old Kai said about SSJB Kaioken in the anime:

But as we also saw, Goku managed to maintain SSJB w/ Kaioken for a while after that statement.

But my overall point is that I think it's debatable if Goku's anime SSJB stamina is at a bigger disadvantage than Goku's limited time usage of the mastered SSJB in the anime. Whilst I concede it's a fact that SSJB also drain stamina in the anime, it's somewhat doubtful if it's as drastic as its anime counterpart, where it was implied to be something pretty drastic.

Like you implied yourself, it's hard to quantify a time frame for manga fights. Because of this, I'd rather mainly follow statements to try and connect the dots for the stamina reserves comparison.

SSJB - Anime: Transforming into SSJB uses a lot of stamina, and maintaining the form is heavily draining
SSJB - Manga: Pretty much the same as above
MSSJB - Fixes the issue of only being able to use the full power of SSJB for a short time

Some anime SSJB fights may seem inconsistent with what the writers have established of its stamina reserves, but I'd say that's more to do with them dragging fights out to prolong episodes for the sake of viewership. Look at Universe level feats, they were focused on through combat and multiple statements in the Battle of Gods Saga, but not that much afterwards because the writers already got their point across and probably don't want to account for Universal feats in every single fight between Universe busters.

 

[xenos5]

Manga SSB is ridiculously more draining and FPSSB just seems to fix that problem of Toyble's own creation. Making SSB Vegeta be at only 10% power because he briefly showed off SSB to Cabba earlier is utter nonsense and i'm glad the anime didn't go that route.

 

[Big Ank]

You missed my point. I'm saying that since Goku could handle SSJB + KK much better the 2nd time than the 1st time, I think that his manga counterpart would be able to handle MSSJB a lot better now due to the experience he had with it in the Zamasu fight. The reason I think this is because both SSJB Kaioken and Mastered SSJB are successful through strength, a calm mind, and excellent ki control.

Oh, ok, I gotcha.

If you watch the anime version of the Goku vs Frieza fight on Namek, it feels long in comparison to the manga version, even when you take out the filler, yet 100% Frieza's stamina was also indicated to be crap in that adaptation too. People may think that anime SSJB Goku has more stamina than manga MSSJB Goku because the former's fights 'feel' longer, but as my example of Goku and Hit's 3rd fight shows, Blue Goku's stamina in combat has actually been shown to match what Goku himself and Whis have said about Blue's drain. MSSJB Goku and Zamasu's fight didn't feel short to me because they were going at it for pretty much 99% of several dozen pages, and if we follow an objective standpoint on this, Vegeta basically said that MSSJB tackles the issue of the short use of regular SSJB.

Yeah, I am not saying the anime fight didn't feel longer. I am just making a point that the manga one between MZ and Goku might have been short even though the amount of pages were pretty big. Not contesting that there's also a drain for SSJB in the anime, but like I said it seems pretty small compared to the manga one, whereas it seems the fighter is constantly losing power. If we assume Goku's mastery of SSJB didn't give him an increase in power, then the drain the form suffers would be to a ridiculous patamar. I honestly don't think the anime ever comes close to that (not that you implied something like this, or anything).

But as we also saw, Goku managed to maintain SSJB w/ Kaioken for a while after that statement.

Goku mentioned that the possibility of doing a Kaioken on top of SSJB would be pretty small, but he managed to bring it "under control" and, like you said, maintain the usage of Kaioken for a while. I feel that implied the drain of Blue isn't too big, if he still managed to keep using the Kaioken on top of it for a while.

 

[SIAD]

In the Manga, Beerus says before the arrival of Future Trunks to the Main Timeline that Goku and Vegeta are increasing their power very slowly, so they give us to understand that Goku and Vegeta (Home Arc Goku Black) are slightly more Stronger than in the Tournament Universes 6 and 7. Therefore, it is impossible that they have become more than 10 times stronger.

I personally think that Goku and Vegeta (Post Fusion), increased their powers as SSJB and so they thought that if they healed, they could compete even a little against Zamasu become the Universe. With that increased power, Goku SSJB was> = Goku SSJB Kaioken x10 (Tournament Universes 6 and 7).

Personally I see the MSSJB many times more powerful than the SSJB, since a Merged Zamasu (Initial / Manga) was doing what he wanted with a Vegeta SSJB (a bit tired). Then Merged Zamasu made a tremendous increase in the Manga.

I think I have them on the same level.

I have something like this:

Goku / Vegeta SSJB (Universe Tournament 6 and 7) = 1

Arc Goku Black (Anime):

Goku / Vegeta SSJB = 1.048576
Goku SSJB (Post Mafuba training) = 1.28
Vegeta SSJB (Post Rosat) = 2.097152
Goku SSJB (Vs MZ) = 2.5
Goku / Vegeta SSJB (Post Vegetto) = 12.5

Arc Goku Black (Manga):

Goku / Vegeta SSJB = 1.048576
Goku SSJB (Post Mafuba training) = 2.097152
Vegeta SSJB (Post Rosat) = 2.097152
Goku / Vegeta SSJB (tired) = 1.6

Merged Zamasu (Initial) = 4.8
Merged Zamasu (FP) = 12

Goku MSSJB = 12.5
Vegeta SSJB (Enraged) = 12.5

I really hope that in Manga, Vegeta achieves the MSSJB and if it is at the same level of Goku, as in Anime.

Another reason I like this theory is that Goku SSJB (ToP) "rivals" the Destroyer Gods, while his old SSJB Kaioken x10 was incredible, but still did not rival the Gods of Destruction.

 

[Spiral-Force]

Yeah, I am not saying the anime fight didn't feel longer. I am just making a point that the manga one between MZ and Goku might have been short even though the amount of pages were pretty big.

Vegeta's explanation of MSSJB points to the form's use not being short. That's good enough for me.

Not contesting that there's also a drain for SSJB in the anime, but like I said it seems pretty small compared to the manga one, whereas it seems the fighter is constantly losing power. If we assume Goku's mastery of SSJB didn't give him an increase in power, then the drain the form suffers would be to a ridiculous patamar. I honestly don't think the anime ever comes close to that (not that you implied something like this, or anything). Goku mentioned that the possibility of doing a Kaioken on top of SSJB would be pretty small, but he managed to bring it "under control" and, like you said, maintain the usage of Kaioken for a while. I feel that implied the drain of Blue isn't too big, if he still managed to keep using the Kaioken on top of it for a while.

Whilst anime SSJB is stated to use up a lot of stamina like its manga counterpart, I don't think it's as bad as manga SSJB's drain, mainly due to (U6-7 Tournament) Vegeta's power reduction in the anime lacking the indication of being as severe as his manga counterpart's. Still, I think it makes a whole lot of sense for manga MSSJB to have better stamina reserves than anime SSJB when it comes to battle.

Example:

MSSJB Goku (Manga) vs SSJB Goku (Anime) - Equal battle powers

Manga Goku would be going at 100% consistently for a decent amount of time whilst anime Goku would continuously be losing power with each exchange, resulting in anime Goku taking more damage each time, which causes more energy loss for him. By the time MSSJB starts to become hard for manga Goku to hold in, anime Goku would have lost so much energy that manga Goku would have a significant amount more leftover in comparison, which leaves things in manga Goku's favour for the rest of the battle.