Goku SSJB (Vs Jiren / Episode 109) vs Vegeta SSJB (Start of ToP)?

[SIAD]

According to @Goku9001's theory it seems that Goku SSJB (Vs Jiren) >= Vegeta SSJB (Start of ToP), since the Gods of U11 talk about Jiren defeating Goku, it would mean that no one could against Jiren. But on the other hand, it is possible that up to that point they didn't know Vegeta's true power, since the only times he had used SSJB before, it was for an instant to finish off the Danger Trio and he used SSJB for an instant to give him a blow. light blow to Magetta.

I think I have no problem having Vegeta SSJB > Goku SSJB, until the latter starts fighting Kefla.

 

[Goku9001]

No it definitely is a problem because it undermines what Belmod and his Angel says about Goku's power. Jiren had to use more power against Goku than he did against Kale. They explicitly state Jiren is using "overwhelming" power against Goku. The power he uses against Kale is something that is way beyond Toppo given how impressed Toppo is of Kale's power. Vegeta only rivals Toppo at that moment. Vegeta only catches up once he goes beyond his limits against Anilaza.

 

[Animelover5487]

No it definitely is a problem because it undermines what Belmod and his Angel says about Goku's power. Jiren had to use more power against Goku than he did against Kale. They explicitly state Jiren is using "overwhelming" power against Goku. The power he uses against Kale is something that is way beyond Toppo given how impressed Toppo is of Kale's power. Vegeta only rivals Toppo at that moment. Vegeta only catches up once he goes beyond his limits against Anilaza.

So do you think Kale was Blue tier? And Goku just got that much stronger in their second fight?

 

[Goku9001]

So do you think Kale was Blue tier? And Goku just got that much stronger in their second fight?

Kale was definitely Blue tier. Toppo was impressed by her power and it took a power much greater than Toppo's to take her out. It's also one of the few times Jiren ever gets involved.

 

[Animelover5487]

Kale was definitely Blue tier. Toppo was impressed by her power and it took a power much greater than Toppo's to take her out. It's also one of the few times Jiren ever gets involved.

Was Maji Kiyo Blue tier too? Dyspo was getting beat and Jiren had to step in. The U3 Kaioshin also thought that Kiyo was strong enough for him to get a good analysis on Jiren's power.

 

[SIAD]

@Animelover5487
@Goku9001

Which gap is bigger between UI Sign Goku (Episode 110) over Genkidama vs Gap between Genkidama over Goku SSJB Kaioken x20 (Episode 109)?

 

[Animelover5487]

Genkidama over Kaioken x20 is bigger since it was powered by the strongest warriors in U7 and is always presented as being a lot more powerful than anything Goku can put out on his own. And as easily as Jiren was pushing it back, he still didn't look like he wanted to be hit by it.

 

[SIAD]

@Goku9001

I really have a hard time having Kale Berseker SSJ at the SSJB level, Goku only mentioned that he would use more power and Goku often used SSJB in a very Suppressed way.

In Episode 101 it is shown how the power difference between SSJ Berseker forms over SSJ can't be too big. The Pride Troopers were overpowering the Kale SSJ + Caulifla SSJ combo attack without much trouble, until Kale transforms into Berseker SSJ and Caulifla transforms into SSJ2 and they easily (not too easily) outmatch the Pride Troopers combo attack.

The only times the SSJB level is witnessed before Episode 109 (other than Goku), is when Vegeta and Goku momentarily use SSJB against the Danger Trio, also a brief staged match between Ultimate Gohan vs. Golden Frieza and Vegeta SSJB. giving Magetta a light blow.

So Goku SSJB (Vs Jiren) is still >= Vegeta SSJB (Start of ToP)?

 

[Goku9001]

Was Maji Kiyo Blue tier too? Dyspo was getting beat and Jiren had to step in. The U3 Kaioshin also thought that Kiyo was strong enough for him to get a good analysis on Jiren's power.

Context. Kale was an unstoppable force that no one could seem to bring down. Likewise, Maji Kiyo was someone Dyspo couldn't bring down which is why Jiren intervened. Kale's power was clearly what was emphasized when Jiren went and disposed of her. The only thing we know for certain is that Maji Kiyo was stronger than Super Saiyan Goku. He's not Blue tier because Blue Goku broke free from his grip easily.

 

[Goku9001]

@Goku9001

I really have a hard time having Kale Berseker SSJ at the SSJB level, Goku only mentioned that he would use more power and Goku often used SSJB in a very Suppressed way.

In Episode 101 it is shown how the power difference between SSJ Berseker forms over SSJ can't be too big. The Pride Troopers were overpowering the Kale SSJ + Caulifla SSJ combo attack without much trouble, until Kale transforms into Berseker SSJ and Caulifla transforms into SSJ2 and they easily (not too easily) outmatch the Pride Troopers combo attack.

The only times the SSJB level is witnessed before Episode 109 (other than Goku), is when Vegeta and Goku momentarily use SSJB against the Danger Trio, also a brief staged match between Ultimate Gohan vs. Golden Frieza and Vegeta SSJB. giving Magetta a light blow.

So Goku SSJB (Vs Jiren) is still >= Vegeta SSJB (Start of ToP)?

I mean, Goku and Vegeta literally went Blue just to counter the U10 Trio's combo attack. Combo attacks are much stronger in the anime than attacks individually.

 

[SIAD]

Yeah, but that doesn't change the fact that Kale's Berserker SSJ form isn't too much superior to her SSJ form based on Episode 101.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I mean, Goku and Vegeta literally went Blue just to counter the U10 Trio's combo attack. Combo attacks are much stronger in the anime than attacks individually.

They just went SSJB for show. You can’t look me in the eye and say 3 guys who are barely Mr Boo level can force Goku and Vegeta to go Blue.

Yeah, but that doesn't change the fact that Kale's Berserker SSJ form isn't too much superior to her SSJ form based on Episode 101.

LSSJ Kale (100) >>> LSSJ Kale (101). Kale had a rage boost because she was angry at Goku.

 

[SIAD]

They just went SSJB for show. You can’t look me in the eye and say 3 guys who are barely Mr Boo level can force Goku and Vegeta to go Blue.



LSSJ Kale (100) >>> LSSJ Kale (101). Kale had a rage boost because she was angry at Goku.

So: Vegeta SSJB (Start of ToP) = Goku SSJB (Vs Jiren) > Kefla Base > Kale Berserker SSJ (Enraged) > Goku SSJB (Start of ToP) >>>>>>> Kale SSJ2 >>> Kale Berserker SSJ > >> Kale SSJ?

Future Trunks was fighting with the Golden Sword against Gigant Zamasu.

 

[Animelover5487]

So: Vegeta SSJB (Start of ToP) = Goku SSJB (Vs Jiren) > Kefla Base > Kale Berserker SSJ (Enraged) > Goku SSJB (Start of ToP) >>>>>>> Kale SSJ2 >>> Kale Berserker SSJ > >> Kale SSJ?

Future Trunks was fighting with the Golden Sword against Gigant Zamasu.

No SSJ2 Kale should be the strongest version of her since Ten and Kuririn said her power level went up exponentially.

Kale's power is just inconsistent. Sometimes she is comparable to Caulifia, and other times she is a threat to Blue tier characters. I give up.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

No SSJ2 Kale should be the strongest version of her since Ten and Kuririn said her power level went up exponentially.

That’s compared to her SSJ1 power though.

 

[SIAD]

No SSJ2 Kale should be the strongest version of her since Ten and Kuririn said her power level went up exponentially.

Kale's power is just inconsistent. Sometimes she is comparable to Caulifia, and other times she is a threat to Blue tier characters. I give up.

But maybe he was referring to Kale SSJ2 being his strongest level. Total, Kale Berserker SSJ against Goku, was Enraged.o

For example Gohan (Arc Saiyan) is not that strong compared to Gohan (Enraged / BoZ), but he is stronger than Gohan (BoZ).

 

[Animelover5487]

That’s compared to her SSJ1 power though.

Kale went into her green haired form and looked like she was going to lose control of herself before Caulifia held her hand than she gained control of the form and turned slimmer which we unofficially call her "SSJ2".

Kuririn then comments on how she's controlled the form and it's power and Tien says that "No. She's far more powerful."

SSJ2 Kale >> Berserker Kale

But maybe he was referring to Kale SSJ2 being his strongest level. Total, Kale Berserker SSJ against Goku, was Enraged.o

For example Gohan (Arc Saiyan) is not that strong compared to Gohan (Enraged / BoZ), but he is stronger than Gohan (BoZ).

Even going by that, Gohan DID get stronger. His max was at 1,307 before Piccolo's training, after the training his peak was at 2,800 and judging by how Piccolo stated that Gohan could output power greater than his own, that is likely the power he was referring to.

 

[SIAD]

Kale went into her green haired form and looked like she was going to lose control of herself before Caulifia held her hand than she gained control of the form and turned slimmer which we unofficially call her "SSJ2".

Kuririn then comments on how she's controlled the form and it's power and Tien says that "No. She's far more powerful."

SSJ2 Kale >> Berserker Kale


Even going by that, Gohan DID get stronger. His max was at 1,307 before Piccolo's training, after the training his peak was at 2,800 and judging by how Piccolo stated that Gohan could output power greater than his own, that is likely the power he was referring to.

So Kale Berserker SSJ is not at the SSJB level. Maybe AT initially intended it to be on that level and later regretted it.

Goku SSJB was very Suppressed when he faced Kale.

So Vegeta SSJB (Start of ToP) >> Goku SSJB (Vs Jiren)?

 

[Animelover5487]

So Kale Berserker SSJ is not at the SSJB level. Maybe AT initially intended it to be on that level and later regretted it.

Goku SSJB was very Suppressed when he faced Kale.

So Vegeta SSJB (Start of ToP) >> Goku SSJB (Vs Jiren)?

Yes. Kale's power is just weird because everytime she powers up into her berserk form she ellicts a reaction from the top tiers (Vegeta, Toppo, Freeza and Jiren somewhat) yet in feats she isn't Blue tier or even God tier.

If you want to keep Kaioken Blue Goku (Zen Exhibition) equal to Toppo, than yes. Vegeta trained his a lot harder than Goku so it is definitely possible.

The only problem I believe is that author's note GS brought up where Goku and Freeza were listed as being tied for the strongest fighters.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The only problem I believe is that author's note GS brought up where Goku and Freeza were listed as being tied for the strongest fighters.

I have actually found a way around that. “Goku’s strength is No. 1” and “Freeza is equal to Goku” are different entries, so it’s possible only one of them includes Kaio-Ken.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/894447693010845697