Goku SSJB (Vs Jiren / Episode 109) vs Vegeta SSJB (Start of ToP)?

[Goku9001]

They just went SSJB for show. You can’t look me in the eye and say 3 guys who are barely Mr Boo level can force Goku and Vegeta to go Blue.



LSSJ Kale (100) >>> LSSJ Kale (101). Kale had a rage boost because she was angry at Goku

No but it does put into perspective how strong combo attacks are in general because there is something explicitly alarming about it. Goku urgently responded to it once he noticed Vegeta was about to be caught into it. Not that it means anything because we know Berserker Kale is tremendously strong solely based on how Toppo and Jiren responded to Kale and we know Kale is much stronger than SSJ2 Caulifa anyways.

 

[Goku9001]

Yes. Kale's power is just weird because everytime she powers up into her berserk form she ellicts a reaction from the top tiers (Vegeta, Toppo, Freeza and Jiren somewhat) yet in feats she isn't Blue tier or even God tier.

If you want to keep Kaioken Blue Goku (Zen Exhibition) equal to Toppo, than yes. Vegeta trained his a lot harder than Goku so it is definitely possible.

The only problem I believe is that author's note GS brought up where Goku and Freeza were listed as being tied for the strongest fighters.

How is thrashing Blue Goku (because of stupidity), alarming both Toppo and Blue Vegeta, somehow not a Blue tier feat? You keep forgetting that Goku had gotten stronger by battling Jiren and Caulifa/Kale before battling FPSSJ Kale in God.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

@Goku9001 can you give us some numbers as an example?

SSJB Goku (100)
LSSJ Kale (100)

LSSJ Kale (114)
SSJ2 Kale
SSJG Goku

 

[Goku9001]

@Goku9001 can you give us some numbers as an example?

SSJB Goku (100)
LSSJ Kale (100)

LSSJ Kale (114)
SSJ2 Kale
SSJG Goku

SSJB Goku (100): 10
LSSJ Kale (100): 10
LSSJ Kale (114): 15
SSJ2 Kale: 20
SSJG Goku: 30
SSJB Goku (109): 75

Numbers out of my ass.

 

[SIAD]

SSJB Goku (100): 10
LSSJ Kale (100): 10
LSSJ Kale (114): 15
SSJ2 Kale: 20
SSJG Goku: 30
SSJB Goku (109): 75

Numbers out of my ass.

Shouldn't Golden Frieza be stronger than Kale Berserker SSJ? Frieza told Cabba that once he defeated him, he would play with the other 2 Saiyans.

What level do you give Kale SSJ, Caulifla SSJ2 and Vegeta SSJ2?

It is true that Vegeta and Toppo respect the power of Kale Berserker SSJ, but even so, Vegeta comments that he is above all those Saiyans. Then when Kale transforms into SSJ2, he still doesn't draw enough attention to Vegeta, so he would say:
Kefla Base >>> Vegeta SSJB > Kale SSJ2 > Goku SSJB (Start ToP) = Kale Berserker SSJ.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The only one to really be impressed was Toppo. Vegeta just tells SSJ2 Goku to not underestimate her and Hit isn’t even impressed at all.

 

[SIAD]

The only one to really be impressed was Toppo. Vegeta just tells SSJ2 Goku to not underestimate her and Hit isn’t even impressed at all.

If you're right. Also it would not be the first time that very powerful characters are impressed by the power of much less strong characters.

I think Goku SSJ2 and Caulifla SSJ2 are much more powerful than their first confrontation in Episode 100, but even so, I don't think they are dozens of times stronger than before.

 

[Goku9001]

If you're right. Also it would not be the first time that very powerful characters are impressed by the power of much less strong characters.

I think Goku SSJ2 and Caulifla SSJ2 are much more powerful than their first confrontation in Episode 100, but even so, I don't think they are dozens of times stronger than before.

Toppo literally states that her energy is tremendous and literally stops the battle to comment on it. He is clearly concerned about it because he expresses that he shouldn't take her lightly. The implication is very clear.

I don't think they are dozens of time stronger? Sounds like a personal gripe there.

 

[Goku9001]

The only one to really be impressed was Toppo. Vegeta just tells SSJ2 Goku to not underestimate her and Hit isn’t even impressed at all.

No he claims the energy is tremendous and stops his battle with Toppo momentarily. Vegeta blatantly tells Goku to take her seriously. Hit is just calmy watching and assessing the situation.

If your only argument is that "Goku said he'll use a little more power!" then that doesn't prove anything. He still has Kaioken and the current power he was outputting wasn't nearly enough so there's no telling how Kale would have performed against Blue Goku at full power outside of the implications made by Blue tier fighters.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

No he claims the energy is tremendous and stops his battle with Toppo momentarily. Vegeta blatantly tells Goku to take her seriously. Hit is just calmy watching and assessing the situation.

If your only argument is that "Goku said he'll use a little more power!" then that doesn't prove anything. He still has Kaioken and the current power he was outputting wasn't nearly enough so there's no telling how Kale would have performed against Blue Goku at full power outside of the implications made by Blue tier fighters.

He was fighting Cabba dude. He then tells Goku to beware and she starts to whoop SSJ2 Goku, but he can still defend himself.

Spoiler

Also shouldn't Kale be a 200 in your numbers since she's comparable to Toppo and Jiren had to step in? By your logic she's at least stronger than Gohan and 17 since he didn't praise either of them.

If you're right. Also it would not be the first time that very powerful characters are impressed by the power of much less strong characters.

To be fair, Toppo is rarely impressed. The only people he gives any commentary besides his own team are Goku, Vegeta, Kale and I think Kefla. But we barely see Toppo in the tournament so who knows.

 

[SIAD]

Toppo literally states that her energy is tremendous and literally stops the battle to comment on it. He is clearly concerned about it because he expresses that he shouldn't take her lightly. The implication is very clear.

I don't think they are dozens of time stronger? Sounds like a personal gripe there.

So how do you explain Frieza telling Cabba that after defeating him, he will play with the Saiyans in Episode 114?

And what numerical gap do you have to Kale Berserker SSJ over his SSJ form?

 

[Goku9001]

So how do you explain Frieza telling Cabba that after defeating him, he will play with the Saiyans in Episode 114?

And what numerical gap do you have to Kale Berserker SSJ over his SSJ form?

Frieza got stronger.

Not sure. SSJ Kale is much weaker than SSJ2 Goku and her Berserker form still falls well below God. Could be a 50x difference but that strictly depends on your multipliers.

 

[Goku9001]

He was fighting Cabba dude. He then tells Goku to beware and she starts to whoop SSJ2 Goku, but he can still defend himself.

Spoiler

Also shouldn't Kale be a 200 in your numbers since she's comparable to Toppo and Jiren had to step in? By your logic she's at least stronger than Gohan and 17 since he didn't praise either of them.



To be fair, Toppo is rarely impressed. The only people he gives any commentary besides his own team are Goku, Vegeta, Kale and I think Kefla. But we barely see Toppo in the tournament so who knows.

Which doesn't amount to anything since Goku still needs Blue to fight Kale.

I was strictly referring to Toppo's battle with Vegeta when Kale unleashes her Berserk power a 2nd time. And yeah, Berserker Kale is likely stronger than Gohan and 17 (at the time of fighting Toppo).

 

[SIAD]

Frieza got stronger.

Not sure. SSJ Kale is much weaker than SSJ2 Goku and her Berserker form still falls well below God. Could be a 50x difference but that strictly depends on your multipliers.

My only issue is that I have a hard time getting Berserker SSJ forms over SSJ multiple times due to the power clash they had against the Pride Troopers.

The string looks like this:

Kale Berserker SSJ + Caulifla SSJ2 >> Pride Troopers Combined Power (Max Power) > Pride Troopers Combined Power > Kale SSJ + Caulifla SSJ.

But none of them seemed to have a difference of a stomp.

That's why I have a hard time getting Kale Berserker SSJ on the SSJB level.

 

[Goku9001]

My only issue is that I have a hard time getting Berserker SSJ forms over SSJ multiple times due to the power clash they had against the Pride Troopers.

The string looks like this:

Kale Berserker SSJ + Caulifla SSJ2 >> Pride Troopers Combined Power (Max Power) > Pride Troopers Combined Power > Kale SSJ + Caulifla SSJ.

But none of them seemed to have a difference of a stomp.

That's why I have a hard time getting Kale Berserker SSJ on the SSJB level.

I'd have to check back later. I don't remember the specifics of this all that well.

 

[SIAD]

I'd have to check back later. I don't remember the specifics of this all that well.

Episode 101

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So how do you explain Frieza telling Cabba that after defeating him, he will play with the Saiyans in Episode 114?

And what numerical gap do you have to Kale Berserker SSJ over his SSJ form?

Kale couldn't control her Berserker power back then.

Going by episode 93 it's similar to Super Saiyan. I still think Kale was getting stronger like Broly.

Frieza got stronger.

All Freeza did was sit on his ass and beat a couple fodder dude. Come on now.

Which doesn't amount to anything since Goku still needs Blue to fight Kale.

I was strictly referring to Toppo's battle with Vegeta when Kale unleashes her Berserk power a 2nd time. And yeah, Berserker Kale is likely stronger than Gohan and 17 (at the time of fighting Toppo).

Of course it does. It means Vegeta's reaction doesn't put Kale on SSJB level, he's just warning Goku that SSJ2 isn't going to be enough. Not that it ever did - unlike Toppo, Vegeta has actually been surprised by powers below his before.

Hm. Goku wasn't really injured by Kale, but all she did was grab his face and throw him away. So at least her feats don't contradict that.

Kale Berserker SSJ + Caulifla SSJ2 >> Pride Troopers Combined Power (Max Power) > Pride Troopers Combined Power > Kale SSJ + Caulifla SSJ.

LSSJ Kale + SSJ2 Caulifla instantly blew the Pride Troopers away. How is that not a stomping gap?

I don't remember how the fight was going before that, but IIRC Kettle alone was giving the girls trouble while Goku and the twins handled Kahseral, Cocotte, Tupper and Zoiray.

 

[SIAD]

Kale couldn't control her Berserker power back then.

Going by episode 93 it's similar to Super Saiyan. I still think Kale was getting stronger like Broly.



All Freeza did was sit on his ass and beat a couple fodder dude. Come on now.



Of course it does. It means Vegeta's reaction doesn't put Kale on SSJB level, he's just warning Goku that SSJ2 isn't going to be enough. Not that it ever did - unlike Toppo, Vegeta has actually been surprised by powers below his before.

Hm. Goku wasn't really injured by Kale, but all she did was grab his face and throw him away. So at least her feats don't contradict that.



LSSJ Kale + SSJ2 Caulifla instantly blew the Pride Troopers away. How is that not a stomping gap?

I don't remember how the fight was going before that, but IIRC Kettle alone was giving the girls trouble while Goku and the twins handled Kahseral, Cocotte, Tupper and Zoiray.

Watch this Episode 101

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Watch this Episode 101

I'll watch the fight scenes on YouTube.

@Goku9001 also Jiren doesn't even knock Kale out of the arena like he did with Hit, he sends the weaker Pride Troopers to finish her off. What a big threat.

 

[SIAD]

Please watch Episode 101 and you'll find out that Kale Berserker SSJ + Caulifla SSJ2 easily defeat the Pride Troopers' combined attack, but it's not a stomp. The Pride Troopers combo attack moderately easily outclassed the Kale SSJ + Caulifla SSJ combo attack.