Goku Vegeta and Gohan power levels in DB Daima and BoG

[Power Level Guy]

We have no idea if base Goku is the same from BoG or if he finger clicks SSJ3 Vegetto.

How can he be the same? What are you suggesting that Base Goku BoG is the same as Base Goku RoF?

For me I'd opt to make Ritual be the same, it shouldn't be different imo.

 

[GSM123]

How can he be the same? What are you suggesting that Base Goku BoG is the same as Base Goku RoF?

For me I'd opt to make Ritual be the same, it shouldn't be different imo.

That’s just how confusing it is. In RoF Goku was super strong because he absorbed SSJG. Toriyama himself even said Goku wouldn’t transform anymore, like the form was a level instead of a multiplier.

Toyo saw ahead and skipped the absorption, but since RoF happened off screen we have no idea what happened. The sanest option would be to assume Goku absorbed a bit of the power, like this:

Base 1
SSJG 10,000,000

Base post 1,000
SSJG post 10,000,000 still

But when reading the manga, It feels like Toyotaro just didn’t give a crap about RoF and kept their bases weak. So retcon? Base Goku vs FF Freeza didn’t happen in manga? Ignore Toyotaro’s possible nerf? Who knows.

And don’t even get me started on the anime… Sheesh.

 

[Power Level Guy]

@GreatSaiyaman123

If we retcon Goku to SSJ versus Freeza it probably makes everything work good, right?

 

[GSM123]

@GreatSaiyaman123

If we retcon Goku to SSJ versus Freeza it probably makes everything work good, right?

Yeah. That’s what the manga seems to imply with Freeza vs Caulifla. Dagon keeps telling me U7 Base Saiyans = Freeza = U6 SSJs but it can’t be. Vegeta and Cabba were equals in the first tournament and there’s no evidence of a power up.

 

[Power Level Guy]

I’m with it. Retcon Goku into being a SSJ against Freeza at RoF and let’s see how it works.

So how strong are Base Saiyans now that we removed the RoF issue?

 

[GSM123]

I’m with it. Retcon Goku into being a SSJ against Freeza at RoF and let’s see how it works.

So how strong are Base Saiyans now that we removed the RoF issue?

Setting RoF 1st form Freeza at BS SSJ Goku level, I got Freeza at Super Boo level and base Goku at Fat Boo level. I have Super Boo 50x Fat Boo so he’s like SSJ Fat Boo lol.

Doing these calcs and going into post-Z stuff without the official multipliers feels so weird. It's like having a conversation in another language. Imagine being asked how strong SSJG is and then you have to explain Freeza Saga power levels first.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Setting RoF 1st form Freeza at BS SSJ Goku level, I got Freeza at Super Boo level and base Goku at Fat Boo level. I have Super Boo 50x Fat Boo so he’s like SSJ Fat Boo lol.

Whoa, so you literally treat it as normal then even for multiple sagas? Wow. Aren't there some things that force Base power to be really high? I guess there's nothing in the manga?

Yeah I have Super Buu about the same as well.

I wonder how those calcs workout with 1st Form Freeza being less than say Fat Buu. Is that what you go by or no?

This sounds a hell of a lot more reasonable to me now. So what about Vegeta, all that training is to acquire a god form, not to radically increase his own basic power?

I'm really liking this idea.

 

[GSM123]

Whoa, so you literally treat it as normal then even for multiple sagas? Wow. Aren't there some things that force Base power to be really high? I guess there's nothing in the manga?

Yeah I have Super Buu about the same as well.

I wonder how those calcs workout with 1st Form Freeza being less than say Fat Buu. Is that what you go by or no?

This sounds a hell of a lot more reasonable to me now. So what about Vegeta, all that training is to acquire a god form, not to radically increase his own basic power?

I'm really liking this idea.

Nope, nothing. Only the anime does that and it’s very contradictory (base Vegeta one shots SSJ3 Gotenks but Piccolo is one shot by Ultimate Gohan. Fights with the wolf bros also have weird implications).

But 1st form Freeza is < Fat Boo in the calcs. I said I put him = Boo Saga SSJ Goku as the bare minimum.

Goku doesn’t train a lot in Super so Vegeta can’t improve too much.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Nope, nothing. Only the anime does that and it’s very contradictory (base Vegeta one shots SSJ3 Gotenks but Piccolo is one shot by Ultimate Gohan. Fights with the wolf bros also have weird implications).

But 1st form Freeza is < Fat Boo in the calcs. I said I put him = Boo Saga SSJ Goku as the bare minimum.

Goku doesn’t train a lot in Super so Vegeta can’t improve too much.

Damn. Would be a hard sell with all the anime stuff hyping up the Base Saiyans. Damn...

 

[GSM123]

Damn. Would be a hard sell with all the anime stuff hyping up the Base Saiyans. Damn...

It’s not very different from the usual Toeism tbh. Only issue is that AT himself had the idea before going back and having SSJG be a separate form again.

 

[Dagon]

Yeah. That’s what the manga seems to imply with Freeza vs Caulifla. Dagon keeps telling me U7 Base Saiyans = Freeza = U6 SSJs but it can’t be. Vegeta and Cabba were equals in the first tournament and there’s no evidence of a power up.

There's your problem.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe the very fact that base/4th form Freeza(whom Goku is close to) are competitive to U6 SSJs in the ToP is the evidence that U7 Saiyans powered up? The Zamasu saga gives good evidence of Goku and Vegeta getting stronger, which means if SSJ Cabba and others are in shown to be in the ballpark of base Goku and Vegeta in the ToP by comparative feats, that it should mean base Goku and Vegeta got stronger?

You're kind of taking the backwards approach, artificially placing limits on characters for lack of a direct positive assertion in verbal form of a power up. You don't need verbal confirmation. Judge feats and that will tell you how strong the characters are.

I do believe it's a fallacy to claim "for lack of a statement of change we must not allow any change in scaling."

 

[GSM123]

There's your problem.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe the very fact that base/4th form Freeza(whom Goku is close to) are competitive to U6 SSJs in the ToP is the evidence that U7 Saiyans powered up? The Zamasu saga gives good evidence of Goku and Vegeta getting stronger, which means if SSJ Cabba and others are in shown to be in the ballpark of base Goku and Vegeta in the ToP by comparative feats, that it should mean base Goku and Vegeta got stronger?

You're kind of taking the backwards approach, artificially placing limits on characters for lack of a direct positive assertion in verbal form of a power up. You don't need verbal confirmation. Judge feats and that will tell you how strong the characters are.

I do believe it's a fallacy to claim "for lack of a statement of change we must not allow any change in scaling."

But that’s basically circular reasoning. If we approach the manga as it is, there is never evidence that Freeza ~ Base Goku to begin with.

Said “Good evidence” consists of Goku and Vegeta mentioning in passing they’ve gotten better. During the ToP, we see Goku about to fight Frost as a SSJ, and Cabba gets the jump Dyspo who bullied SSJ2 Goku.

I remember we discussed this briefly on Neo and you never answered this question: Do you think ToP Freeza is base level in the anime too? Despite U6 Saiyans being ~ U7 Saiyans there and Freeza showing superior raw strength compared to Dyspo.

 

[Dagon]

But that’s basically circular reasoning. If we approach the manga as it is, there is never evidence that Freeza ~ Base Goku to begin with.

Said “Good evidence” consists of Goku and Vegeta mentioning in passing they’ve gotten better. During the ToP, we see Goku about to fight Frost as a SSJ, and Cabba gets the jump Dyspo who bullied SSJ2 Goku.

I remember we discussed this briefly on Neo and you never answered this question: Do you think ToP Freeza is base level in the anime too? Despite U6 Saiyans being ~ U7 Saiyans there and Freeza showing superior raw strength compared to Dyspo.

How is it circular reasoning? If we don't have statements then we should judge what we can, which includes feats.

It would certainly help to have a statement but we should not deny the possibility for growth for lack of one.

Maybe the status quo between Frost and the other U6 characters isn't the same as before. SSJ Goku didn't actually get to fight Frost in the ToP did he? If they didn't fight then we can't judge just from Goku being in SSJ, it could mean anything.

What did Cabba do to Dyspo? Was it a surprise attack?

I haven't logged in to Neo in a while because it's draining to talk to brick walls over there m(not you though).

The anime ToP is pretty all over the place. Characters have different power levels across episodes so it's hard to judge what's real and what's a character holding back. I don't know.