Goku vs Vegeta (Saiyan Saga) PLs ignoring the Daizenshuu

[Natasha Romanoff]

Goku: 8,200
~Kkx2: 16,400
~Kkx3: 24,600
~Kkx4: 32,800

Vegeta: 18,000
~FP: 18,270

Kkx3 Kamehameha (expected): 54,640
Kkx3 Kamehameha (actual): 27,206
Kkx4 Kamehameha: 36,080

Garlick Gun: 34,075

Weakened Vegeta: 4,800

~Heavily weakened: 3,500

Gohan: 2,800

Krillin: 1,770

Initial Genkidama: 120,000
~Half of its power: 60,000
~Used against Vegeta: 3,640

This is myself making sense of Toriyama's whole mess he did in this saga, how would you make your own power levels on this saga?

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

I have to say that the theory of amplification ki being a thing during this period is enjoyable to work with, although, seems more like wishful thinking rather than logical thinking.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

@SIAD
@GreatSaiyaman123
What do you have?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Vegeta can’t alter his power level as per the manga itself, so I think his Garlic Gun also has a PL of 18,000 and Goku was just that weak.

Goku (Post KKx4): 4,000

Vegeta (Post Beam Struggle): 12,000
~ Post Ki Ball: 6,000
~ Oozaru: 60,000

Genki-Dama: 100,000

Gohan: 1,350
Kuririn: 1,770
Yajirobe: 970

Vegeta (Post Oozaru): 4,000
Gohan (Enraged): 2,800

Genki-Dama (Weakened): 50,000
~ Hitting Vegeta: 5,000

Vegeta (Post Genki-Dama): 1,800

Kuririn (Injured): 770

Gohan (Injured): 450
~ Oozaru: 4,500

 

[Hector]

Goku: 8,100
-Kkx1.5: 12.150
-Kkx2: 16.200
-Kkx3: 24.300

Vegeta: 12.000
-FP: 18.000

Vegeta (post 1st beating): 16.500
Goku (post 1st KKx3): 7.000

Vegeta (gallick gun): 24.750 (1.5x base power)
Goku (Kkx3 + KHH): 24.500 (Kk3x + half of remaining base power)
Goku (Kkx4 + KHH): 31.500

Vegeta
-post beam struggle: 5.000
-post making moon: 4.500
-ape: 45.000
-back to normal: 4.500

Gohan: 1.400
-1st rage (Nappa): 2.800
-2nd rage (Vegeta): 4.200
-ape: 14.000

Krillin: 1.400

Initial Genkidama: 60.000
-half power: 30.000
-used against Vegeta: 6.000

Vegeta (post Genkidama): 1.800

 

[Dagon]

Vegeta can’t alter his power level as per the manga itself, so I think his Garlic Gun also has a PL of 18,000 and Goku was just that weak.

Is it actually said that Vegeta can't change his power level? The Z Fighters could not tell that Vegeta was stronger than Nappa when Vegeta wasn't fighting. Both Nappa and Vegeta power up so they can change their power to some degree. I think its more that they can't suppress themselves.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Is it actually said that Vegeta can't change his power level? The Z Fighters could not tell that Vegeta was stronger than Nappa when Vegeta wasn't fighting. Both Nappa and Vegeta power up so they can change their power to some degree. I think its more that they can't suppress themselves.

When he’s fighting Kui or Dodoria, Vegeta says he learned a very important thing on Earth: How to alter his power level. I think it was when he powered up for Kui.

Also I don’t think Zarbon and Dodoria would’ve made such a big deal out of 24k Vegeta if he could reach similar (or higher) levels with the Garlic Gun.

 

[Dagon]

When he’s fighting Kui or Dodoria, Vegeta says he learned a very important thing on Earth: How to alter his power level. I think it was when he powered up for Kui.

Also I don’t think Zarbon and Dodoria would’ve made such a big deal out of 24k Vegeta if he could reach similar (or higher) levels with the Garlic Gun.

We clearly see Vegeta and Nappa power up though. Vegeta even shows a performance difference when he matches Kaio-Ken x2 Goku then outperforms KKx2 Goku when he powers up. Can't deny that.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

We clearly see Vegeta and Nappa power up though. Vegeta even shows a performance difference when he matches Kaio-Ken x2 Goku then outperforms KKx2 Goku when he powers up. Can't deny that.

Agreed. But you had a scouter, Vegeta’s power level would always be 18,000.

 

[Dagon]

Agreed. But you had a scouter, Vegeta’s power level would always be 18,000.

Then it's not a power up.
You could say Vegeta was doing the Saiyan adaptation thing of gaining power in battle for the Galick Gun.
The theme of this thread is ignoring Daizenshuu but we do have Kaio-Ken x4 Goku listed as 32k so that must mean something.

Within the manga we see Kaio-Ken x3 Goku break Raditz' scouter at 22k so if you want the Galick Gun to be 18k then you'd have to weaken Goku's second use of Kaio-Ken x3 which is not stated.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Then it's not a power up.

Power levels aren't the definitive measure system of power, Ki sensing is. And if Goku noticed Vegeta's Ki got higher, then it did. Power levels are a more simplistic system.

You could say Vegeta was doing the Saiyan adaptation thing of gaining power in battle for the Galick Gun.
The theme of this thread is ignoring Daizenshuu but we do have Kaio-Ken x4 Goku listed as 32k so that must mean something.

I'm not sure that works. Wouldn't that mean Vegeta was already at 24k before his Zenkai?

Within the manga we see Kaio-Ken x3 Goku break Raditz' scouter at 22k so if you want the Galick Gun to be 18k then you'd have to weaken Goku's second use of Kaio-Ken x3 which is not stated.

I'm not sure. Toriyama really messed up here. When Vegeta sees Gohan charge his Masenko up to 2800, he's surprised and says that's definitive proof the earthlings change their power levels. So he can't change his power with a blast like Gohan just did, even though the Garlic Gun is stated in story and guidebooks to be the exact same thing as the Kamehameha.

Goku's stamina is also weird. He's clearly tired, but still pulls off a lot of power and even suggests he could go up to Kaio-Ken x5 against Oozaru Vegeta.

 

[Dagon]

Power levels aren't the definitive measure system of power, Ki sensing is. And if Goku noticed Vegeta's Ki got higher, then it did. Power levels are a more simplistic system.

This seems like a moot point that doesn't address what we are discussing. Remember that Vegeta referred to Majin Buu's "sentou-ryoku" upon Buu's hatching, which is the same phrase used for battle powers. This was long after scouters were gone. That means there should be some equivalence between sensing and scouters.

I'm not sure that works. Wouldn't that mean Vegeta was already at 24k before his Zenkai?

No it means his ki blast could have been that level.

I'm not sure. Toriyama really messed up here. When Vegeta sees Gohan charge his Masenko up to 2800, he's surprised and says that's definitive proof the earthlings change their power levels. So he can't change his power with a blast like Gohan just did, even though the Garlic Gun is stated in story and guidebooks to be the exact same thing as the Kamehameha.

Vegeta tells Cui that while he was on Earth he learned how to control his battle power. So he could have begun adapting before he left Earth.