Gone

[SSJ2]

Well it's plainly written in the manga whether you doubt it or not.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

?????????????????????????

DBS anime ain't canon

 

[MikaelHarding]

Their magic doesn't make them any stronger

Chapter: 7, P10.1-2
Context: after Bulma squashes him in bike form
Oolong: “I can’t help it! I can only change my appearance; my power doesn’t change! To top it off, I can only stay transformed for 5 minutes. After that, I have to rest for 1 minute…”


No, Goku went straight to Kame House after getting his tail cut. He didn't train at any point before requesting to train under Roshi.

What are you talking about? Nam traded blows evenly with Goku and his skydive attack knocked Goku out cold for several seconds.

How is #8 being unable to grow stronger relevant to him being much stronger than Muscle Tower Goku? What kind of argument is this?

No he doesn't. Even Tao's Dodonpa couldn't defeat Goku.

No Goku's KHH was more powerful than Gohan's. Goku is definitely stronger than Grandpa Gohan regardless of experience.

Chappa was used as a benchmark for how strong Goku had become since the Baba Tournament. So he should be at least rivaling Baba Goku for Goku's friends to think an assumed stronger Goku would have his hands full with him.

You have Roshi equal to 22nd Goku and Tenshinhan when Goku's match level was stated to be stronger than Roshi.

how do you know that???????

yeah but the fact that he knows magic and he's a pig puts him a little above human level just a bit.

well goku is a saiyan so its natural for him to grow stronger than normal earthlings including the ones with superhuman strength.

dude nam had limits to his powers but goku can overcome any limit so even when he was knocked out for several seconds can just adapt.

ummm sorry what I meant to say is #8 has limits to his power too so even if he was stronger than current goku then the latter is a saiyan who has strength well beyond normal humans and can get stronger the more he trains especially since he's the strongest of all saiyans despite being so young back then.

When Tao is introduced, he is shown to be very powerful at that point in the series. In the anime, he toys with General Blue, at that point the only villain Goku had struggled with in a head-on battle and kills him with one pressure-point strike to the temple using his tongue after proving resistant to his telekinesis (the manga instead has him wasting no time in taking Blue out, though it is still heavily implied that he was superior to Blue ultimately). He then overwhelms Goku with great ease.

Well considering this goku is still a kid at the beginning of the series and a low class saiyan his natural born talents didn't come full circle until the namek saga where he surpassed vegeta who was stronger than he was during the saiyan invasion.

Chappa is a powerful martial artist who was once able to become champion of an unknown previous World Martial Arts Tournament without taking even a single blow and has a high reputation amongst other acclaimed fighters like Yamcha and Master Roshi, with Yamcha described him as "godlike" but yamcha himself is nothing to at and Roshi stating that Chappa would be a troublesome opponent for Goku (before Roshi saw how much Goku had improved since the previous tournament). Despite that he was no match for Goku or Tambourine

Roshi is not a push over even for normal human standards he is truly strong so he should at least have a fighting chance during the tournament if he trained that is.

 

[MikaelHarding]

Well it's plainly written in the manga whether you doubt it or not.

No

 

[SSJ2]

Bro read the fucking manga before spouting this garbage.

 

[MikaelHarding]

Bro read the fucking manga before spouting this garbage.

I did

 

[Pyro]

Yeah the hellzone grenade was incredibly strong it took everything piccolo had if piccolo had hit 17 with a blast like that if cell had not interrupted them then the android would have most certainly been critically injured possibly killed and I think that is why he ran instead of putting up his barrier he knew he couldn't have stopped that. Also 17 has speed on his side but lacks raw power piccolo even said that earlier in the fight.

Right, so why is Cell so close to Piccolo? He took the attack with no damage. That's a huge gap in strength.

well their superhuman for one their strength puts them leagues above any other earthling on the planet and its not like their strength makes much of a difference anyway when battling opponents that way stronger than them cell, saiyans, androids, piccolo, etc.

OK, so you're agreeing with me that they're pretty irrelevant. That's why I'm asking why you're making them stronger with no directive from the story to do so.

well the kids are saiyans that in itself explains how plus no other normal earthling can fight 18 like that including krillin, tien, and yamcha.

That isn't addressing the fight. Them being Saiyans has nothing to do with how they fought 18.

Well Vegito is the fusion of vegeta and goku who are exceptionally strong fighters and prodigies plus their in perfect sync with each other whereas buuhan or gohan-boo as you call him only absorbed their power/techniques and relied on himself

But again, how does stamina and regeneration help you against somebody 15x stronger? Vegetto doesn't get some magical ability to bypass that. He's a mortal fighter like anybody else.

the manga is based off the anime no matter how you slice it despite doing things differently it ultimately is for the same concept.

No, you have it backwards. The anime is based off of the manga. What the anime says has NO bearing on the manga's events.

No I think kid buu could have used god ki it I mean nothing was holding him back plus his regeneration was extremely tough even for the normal majin he could do anything how do you know he wasn't using it in the final battle

You need to prove he was. God ki makes you unable to be sensed by normal people without god ki, yet nobody and absolutely nothing implied this was the case for Pure Boo.

No it didn't affect SSJ goku remember he was predicting hit timeskip if that was the case hit could have ended the fight a lot quicker than his fight with SSB vegeta using at his full power which was comparable to SSG power. When hit and SSJ goku were fighting hit's raw power was pressuring SSJ without God ki and hit was still holding back his power.

Did we read the same fight? Suppressed Hit and SSJ Goku were close in power. This is stated. How Hit's Time Skip works is stated. SSB Vegeta was affected by the Time Skip, thus he is close in power to suppressed Hit. Thus, both SSJ Goku and weakened SSB Vegeta are close in power. This is unavoidable. It's stated and shown.

Frieza can't sense God Ki right?

No, but he's capable of telling how strong someone is by looking at their movements, just like fighters did with Dabura (for example). Freeza already showed he was capable of estimating somebody's strength way back on Namek. Plus, Freeza literally fought Jiren. He would know how powerful he is from that alone, he doesn't need to sense the ki itself.

 

[MikaelHarding]

Right, so why is Cell so close to Piccolo? He took the attack with no damage. That's a huge gap in strength.

because piccolo was tired from fighting 17 and that one attack was all the namekian had after that piccolo realize nothing worked and he was too exhausted to fight back.

OK, so you're agreeing with me that they're pretty irrelevant. That's why I'm asking why you're making them stronger with no directive from the story to do so.

yes their irrelevant and I'm making them stronger because it does not matter their power doesn't make a difference in the overall story. Their powers are useless against the saiyans, frieza, the androids, cell, majin buu, and beerus so making them a minuscule stronger doesn't change anything.

That isn't addressing the fight. Them being Saiyans has nothing to do with how they fought 18.

them being saiyans has everything to do with how they fought 18 no normal human can beat her and even if their a little ahead she can always wear out her opponent in the stamina department.

But again, how does stamina and regeneration help you against somebody 15x stronger? Vegetto doesn't get some magical ability to bypass that. He's a mortal fighter like anybody else.

dude if you have limitless stamina and a potent healing factor then that means you can endure just about anybody stronger than you and eventually tiring them out as the fight goes on. did you see goku ssj3 vs majin buu the former launched a kamehameha near the end that would have killed a normal opponent but fat buu simply regenerated from it and copied his technique. when it looked like vegito overpowered gohan buu in fused saiyan's base form the majin took no serious damage the in half the fight showing buu regeneration kept up.

No, you have it backwards. The anime is based off of the manga. What the anime says has NO bearing on the manga's events.

Oh sorry your right the anime is based off the manga but the anime is from the manga regardless even if its a little different like the filter arcs or movies the story is essentially the same.

You need to prove he was. God ki makes you unable to be sensed by normal people without god ki, yet nobody and absolutely nothing implied this was the case for Pure Boo.

see right there pure boo he was completely and utterly evil he was not restricted by morals, empathy, remorse, or conscience this version of buu could use his powers to their full potential even if he couldn't properly use God ki the way gods like beerus, and whis do he could at the very least gotten more raw power from it.

Did we read the same fight? Suppressed Hit and SSJ Goku were close in power. This is stated. How Hit's Time Skip works is stated. SSB Vegeta was affected by the Time Skip, thus he is close in power to suppressed Hit. Thus, both SSJ Goku and weakened SSB Vegeta are close in power. This is unavoidable. It's stated and shown.

stated by who?????? then why did goku need to go SSJG if he and weakened SSB vegeta were close in power?????? against hit.
Hit was clearly wearing SSJ Goku out in the first portion of their fight he could have beaten him if given time.

No, but he's capable of telling how strong someone is by looking at their movements, just like fighters did with Dabura (for example). Freeza already showed he was capable of estimating somebody's strength way back on Namek. Plus, Freeza literally fought Jiren. He would know how powerful he is from that alone, he doesn't need to sense the ki itself.

if thats the case then why didn't he compare broly and beerus and tell if broly was stronger than the god of destruction.

 

[Pyro]

because piccolo was tired from fighting 17 and that one attack was all the namekian had after that piccolo realize nothing worked and he was too exhausted to fight back.

Your levels don't reflect that.

yes their irrelevant and I'm making them stronger because it does not matter their power doesn't make a difference in the overall story. Their powers are useless against the saiyans, frieza, the androids, cell, majin buu, and beerus so making them a minuscule stronger doesn't change anything.

That's not really how it works. You don't make unnecessary changes just for the sake of doing it. The story governs the strength boosts. If the story doesn't imply they got stronger, you're literally making up a part of the story that doesn't exist just because. Even if it's irrelevant it's still up for scrutiny.

them being saiyans has everything to do with how they fought 18 no normal human can beat her and even if their a little ahead she can always wear out her opponent in the stamina department.

I never denied she could outlast them if they're similar in strength, but your levels make them far too weak. They were as strong as her without Super Saiyan and completely blew her away with Super Saiyan.

dude if you have limitless stamina and a potent healing factor then that means you can endure just about anybody stronger than you and eventually tiring them out as the fight goes on. did you see goku ssj3 vs majin buu the former launched a kamehameha near the end that would have killed a normal opponent but fat buu simply regenerated from it and copied his technique. when it looked like vegito overpowered gohan buu in fused saiyan's base form the majin took no serious damage the in half the fight showing buu regeneration kept up.

Actually, that Kamehameha was quick and uncharged. It was nothing like the Kamehamehas used against Cell or Raditz, for example. By your logic, nobody should be able to beat Boo, yet he was one-shotted by Beerus and was able to be killed by Gotenks.

Oh sorry your right the anime is based off the manga but the anime is from the manga regardless even if its a little different like the filter arcs or movies the story is essentially the same.

But it's not. If Vegeta didn't get a rage boost in the manga and you're making a manga list, you shouldn't use anime elements.

see right there pure boo he was completely and utterly evil he was not restricted by morals, empathy, remorse, or conscience this version of buu could use his powers to their full potential even if he couldn't properly use God ki the way gods like beerus, and whis do he could at the very least gotten more raw power from it.

Then prove it. That's what I'm asking. Prove he got stronger. Give me a statement from one of the characters noting Boo got randomly stronger. Give me a statement that Boo could be some half-god like your logic is implying here.

stated by who?????? then why did goku need to go SSJG if he and weakened SSB vegeta were close in power?????? against hit.
Hit was clearly wearing SSJ Goku out in the first portion of their fight he could have beaten him if given time.

Stated by the characters. It was stated SSJ Goku and Hit were on par but Goku was wearing out faster because of the Time Skip. It was stated Hit was suppressed so his full power was on par with SSG Goku. It was stated SSB Vegeta at less than 10% was affected by the Time Skip. The rules for the Time Skip were explained. SSB Vegeta (less than 10%), SSJ Goku, and suppressed Hit were all around the same level as one another. Your list has Vegeta insurmountably stronger and that doesn't fit with the given statements.

if thats the case then why didn't he compare broly and beerus and tell if broly was stronger than the god of destruction.

His statement was that he didn't think anybody in existence could beat SSJ Broly. We then take that statement and eliminate the obvious exceptions. Zeno and the Grand Priest weren't included for obvious reasons. The Angels weren't included because they're not really fighters, Freeza doesn't know much about them at all, and we saw Whis casually tool SSJ Broly after Freeza made the statement. Beerus wasn't included because Freeza doesn't know the Gods' full powers and we know from current statements that Beerus would one-shot even SSB Gogeta, let alone SSJ Broly. That leaves Jiren as the next strongest and there's nothing contradicting the comparison since Freeza directly fought Jiren and witnessed the limits of Jiren's power.

 

[SIAD]

Your levels don't reflect that.

That's not really how it works. You don't make unnecessary changes just for the sake of doing it. The story governs the strength boosts. If the story doesn't imply they got stronger, you're literally making up a part of the story that doesn't exist just because. Even if it's irrelevant it's still up for scrutiny.

I never denied she could outlast them if they're similar in strength, but your levels make them far too weak. They were as strong as her without Super Saiyan and completely blew her away with Super Saiyan.

Actually, that Kamehameha was quick and uncharged. It was nothing like the Kamehamehas used against Cell or Raditz, for example. By your logic, nobody should be able to beat Boo, yet he was one-shotted by Beerus and was able to be killed by Gotenks.

But it's not. If Vegeta didn't get a rage boost in the manga and you're making a manga list, you shouldn't use anime elements.

Then prove it. That's what I'm asking. Prove he got stronger. Give me a statement from one of the characters noting Boo got randomly stronger. Give me a statement that Boo could be some half-god like your logic is implying here.

Stated by the characters. It was stated SSJ Goku and Hit were on par but Goku was wearing out faster because of the Time Skip. It was stated Hit was suppressed so his full power was on par with SSG Goku. It was stated SSB Vegeta at less than 10% was affected by the Time Skip. The rules for the Time Skip were explained. SSB Vegeta (less than 10%), SSJ Goku, and suppressed Hit were all around the same level as one another. Your list has Vegeta insurmountably stronger and that doesn't fit with the given statements.

His statement was that he didn't think anybody in existence could beat SSJ Broly. We then take that statement and eliminate the obvious exceptions. Zeno and the Grand Priest weren't included for obvious reasons. The Angels weren't included because they're not really fighters, Freeza doesn't know much about them at all, and we saw Whis casually tool SSJ Broly after Freeza made the statement. Beerus wasn't included because Freeza doesn't know the Gods' full powers and we know from current statements that Beerus would one-shot even SSB Gogeta, let alone SSJ Broly. That leaves Jiren as the next strongest and there's nothing contradicting the comparison since Freeza directly fought Jiren and witnessed the limits of Jiren's power.

Do you think it could be possible that Gogeta PSSJB is multiple times stronger than Broly LSSJ?

What happens is that I find it difficult to see Broly LSSJ being many times stronger than Jiren, considering that at the beginning of Arc Moro, Goku still talks about how impressively strong the Warriors of other Universes are and then he talks about Broly as if not out of a very different league than Jiren's.

It could even be that Vegetto SSJB had a great Multiplier and that Gogeta PSSJB was tens of times stronger than Broly LSSJ.
Something like this:

Gogeta PSSJB >>>>>>>>>>> Gogeta SSJ2 (Hypothetical)> Broly LSSJ >>> Gogeta SSJ> Broly SSJ> = UI Goku (ToP)?

 

[MikaelHarding]

Your levels don't reflect that.

Cell (1st): 250,000,000
Piccolo (Fused with Kami/Suppressed): 250,000,000
Android 17: 360,000,000
Piccolo (Full Power): 360,000,000 (stated by Vegeta to be stronger than the average the Super Saiyan. He stood 1v1 against Android 17 and even held back some of his power. He was overpowered by Cell and Android 16 would likely give him a tough battle) CelI (600,000 Humans Absorbed): 390,000,000 (this was after he absorbed 600,000 humans. It was said by Android 16 that he was almost as strong as himself. Piccolo and Android 17 would have probably beat him if they weren’t so tired from their fight)
If piccolo and android 17 could have beaten cell together than that means the bio-android's power up was not too out of reach for them to have even tag team.

That's not really how it works. You don't make unnecessary changes just for the sake of doing it. The story governs the strength boosts. If the story doesn't imply they got stronger, you're literally making up a part of the story that doesn't exist just because. Even if it's irrelevant it's still up for scrutiny.

it doesn't matter still why don't you understand "making it up" is not going to affect anything the story is mainly focused on goku and other strong fighters like him. Also remember they've trained 3 years to prepare against the androids before that they trained with king kai who brought their power levels well beyond any normal mortal well technically their superhumans but still earthlings and even before that during the saiyan invasion when their powers were well below 1,000 but not below 100 they managed to well surpass raditz original power level in one year's time but ultimately it didn't really amount to anything my point is fighters like them have no real relevance remember I think I said before that half of these are rough estimates to the characters battle power.

I never denied she could outlast them if they're similar in strength, but your levels make them far too weak. They were as strong as her without Super Saiyan and completely blew her away with Super Saiyan.

well their saiyans kids their even younger than gohan when he became one and that wasn't until the android/cell saga that he finally transformed and mastered it plus he reached ssj2 a whole new level kid trunks and goten have yet to master the basic super saiyan form yet so thats the level their at until they do so also there's two of them and they've trained a bit for the tournament also neither mighty mask nor 18 took any serious damage trunks and goten were pressuring 18 together even with the costume on but they were also being pressured too so the match was kind of even with super saiyan.

Actually, that Kamehameha was quick and uncharged. It was nothing like the Kamehamehas used against Cell or Raditz, for example. By your logic, nobody should be able to beat Boo, yet he was one-shotted by Beerus and was able to be killed by Gotenks.

A kamehameha from a suppressed ssj3 Against Fat buu whose ssj3 power is 400x stronger > Mastered ssj against cell > Rusty Base Kamehameha against Raditz. also raditz is mortal so a shot like that would kill him center and cell doesn't have regeneration strong enough for that even that tiny nucleus in his brain got blown away by a father-son ssj2 kamehameha. gotenks in his base form was not enough to actually kill fat buu despite the power increase at most he can blow him away but not completely destroy him. Had ssj gotenks been given the chance to actually fight him instead of goofing off he would have easily destroyed him at full power even less but that chance never came.

But it's not. If Vegeta didn't get a rage boost in the manga and you're making a manga list, you shouldn't use anime elements.

well considering vegeta was tossed around like trash by kid buu and given a saiyan's ability to grow stronger that little rage boost is inconsequential.

Then prove it. That's what I'm asking. Prove he got stronger. Give me a statement from one of the characters noting Boo got randomly stronger. Give me a statement that Boo could be some half-god like your logic is implying here.

Kid buu wiki abilities:

• Unknown, unfathomable power – Buu possess an odd ki signature that makes it hard to tell how strong Buu really is. Whether Buu's power level is incredible, or not that much is unknown even by Majin Buu.

Hint raw god power its the only plausible explanation. Goku also states that, as Kid Buu, his speed and power are "on a whole other level compared to any other versions of Buu. See although Kid buu could not access this power at will he must have unconsciously been tapping into it.

Stated by the characters. It was stated SSJ Goku and Hit were on par but Goku was wearing out faster because of the Time Skip. It was stated Hit was suppressed so his full power was on par with SSG Goku. It was stated SSB Vegeta at less than 10% was affected by the Time Skip. The rules for the Time Skip were explained. SSB Vegeta (less than 10%), SSJ Goku, and suppressed Hit were all around the same level as one another. Your list has Vegeta insurmountably stronger and that doesn't fit with the given statements.

Yeah I don't think hit was using his time skip against SSJ goku remember he's not completely helpless without it if it takes god level strength to match and take him down so Hit (No Time Skip) > SSJ goku (No god Ki). Even he said during T.O.P that time Skip doesn't work on those who's adapted to it like goku or jiren and considering how fast both were able to even do it means he used his raw power against goku and jiren in the middle of their fight and hit during that time was as strong as perfected super saiyan blue alone.

His statement was that he didn't think anybody in existence could beat SSJ Broly. We then take that statement and eliminate the obvious exceptions. Zeno and the Grand Priest weren't included for obvious reasons. The Angels weren't included because they're not really fighters, Freeza doesn't know much about them at all, and we saw Whis casually tool SSJ Broly after Freeza made the statement. Beerus wasn't included because Freeza doesn't know the Gods' full powers and we know from current statements that Beerus would one-shot even SSB Gogeta, let alone SSJ Broly. That leaves Jiren as the next strongest and there's nothing contradicting the comparison since Freeza directly fought Jiren and witnessed the limits of Jiren's power.

In Dragon Ball FighterZ, Jiren states that Super Saiyan Blue Vegito, and Gogeta in his Super Saiyan Blue or Super Saiyan 4 forms are equal to him in power. Even for a video game its still based from the anime series which even that is based from the manga despite differences in both versions.

In the Xenoverse 2 story DLC, Super Full Power Jiren proves an even match for Full Power Super Saiyan Broly when they clash. Ultimately Jiren Won.

Victory Uchida believes Broly to be one of those still ahead of Goku by the time of the Granolah the Survivor Saga. But later during the talk interview Toyotarou refers to Granolah, Vegeta, and Goku as the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd strongest mortal warriors in the seventh universe thereby putting Broly at a lower level than the trio which makes him less powerful than Goku in his MUI state.

Granolah (Both Red Eyes) > Vegeta (Ultra Ego) > Goku (MUI) > Moro (Angel Form) > Jiren (SFP)
Whose power is said to exceed that of the 12 Gods of Destruction including Belmod, Beerus, Quitela, Champa, etc > Broly (FP) who's stated by Goku to probably be stronger than Beerus > the Gods of Destruction's.

Witnessing the limits of Jiren power I mean I'm surprised Frieza even challenged him but then again he was not trying to beat him because it was impossible but just trying to run down the clock also Beerus full power is a 10 which is inferior to Jiren (SFP) 12.1, Broly 11.2, Gogeta Blue 12, and Goku Mui 12. What I'm trying to say is frieza cannot completely comprehend broly full power either if he did then he should have said nobody in existence could beat him after seemingly looking at his power earlier and known the saiyan has power equal to if not greater than a GOD instead of just observing his movements.

SSB Gogeta who's More or less equal to Jiren who's stronger than Belmod who's above Beerus.

 

[SIAD]

I was thinking that UI Sign Goku (Arc Moro) must be much superior to UI Goku (ToP), because when Goku showed up, Gohan and Piccolo who were witnesses that Goku had trained for 2 months, they were impressed by how powerful he was. it was in his UI Sign Goku form, even before they knew that Goku was in Sing UI form.

Even when Vegeta appeared, he knew that Moro had defeated Goku, even though Vegeta thought that Goku had fought in his UI form. Even so, Vegeta proclaimed himself stronger than Moro before starting the fight.

Even so, at the beginning of Arc Moro, the UI form was still portrayed as an awesome power, therefore I don't think Broly SSJ is much more powerful than Vegeta SSJBE (ToP). Surely Frieza compared Broly's power to that of God Toppo or to the Suppressed blow he received from Jiren.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

...but never forgotten.