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Base Gotenks Pre ROSAT
Logically speaking, Base Gotenks must be >> Majin Vegeta. Remember, this is POST Ssj3 Goku vs Fat Buu. The new standard thought line is that even Goku couldn't really get it done. Sure, the reader knows he probably could have based on Piccolo's thoughts. But it is questionable. Majin Vegeta is pure garbage at this point. Goku on the other hand is the new standard. You have to be somewhere around Goku to even think you can beat Majin Buu. Piccolo's statements that Base Gotenks is not capable downgrades him from Goku's level, but not so far as down to Vegeta's pathetic level.
Super Saiyan 3 Goku >= Majin Buu >> Base Gotenks >> Majin Vegeta is the proper chain imo.
Numerically let's see.
Ssj Gotenks 550
Ssj3 Goku 500
Majin Buu 400
Gotenks 220
Majin Vegeta 125
That's probably the most accurate representation of these events.
Guidelines.
1) Goten/Trunks have sensed both Vegeta vs Buu and Goku vs Buu. They are good ki sensors and know exactly where their dads stand.
2) Gotenks is extremely confident in base, sure he's overzealous, but you have to give his confidence some respect here, clearly if he is merely comparable to Majin Vegeta, there would be no hope. Krillin and Yamcha would not be capable of expressing hope either. Sure, they are more going off of his confidence, but even then, there are limits. Where I have him at, gives us a chance to make all of there statements work.
3) Piccolo knows for a fact Gotenks cannot win. Piccolo's sensing is most accurate here, he can clearly see the divide between Goku (what's needed to truly beat/contend with Buu) and what Gotenks brings to the table. Nothing about Piccolo's statements suggest he is only as strong as Vegeta, if he was, Piccolo would probably mention, You are only as strong as Vegeta and look how that turned out. Everything about the entire groups statements point to Base Gotenks >> Vegeta.
Fearless Zamasu wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:54 pm
Gotenks needs to be stronger than Majin Boo who fought Goku in order to gain that confidence lol, but he got his ass kicked which means that Gotenks is a full of shit and shouldn't be taken seriously.
Well the problem with that logic is that every time someone is wrong, then what? We just randomly assign their value? That is not logical. You need to make it like a math equation. There's no reason to drop him down anymore levels than necessary. Same thing for overestimating on our part, we shouldn't radically assume a character is much stronger than suggested. So we set up a bit of a chart here to determine. Asking questions is always best.
1) How strong do the characters say Gotenks is?
A) Piccolo says although he is very strong, he has no chance against Buu.
B) Gotenks thinks he can win, easily.
C) The rest of the crew thinks he can do it, but are banking on Gotenks confidence.
2) What happens in the fight?
We don't know for sure, but Gotenks got his ass kicked, badly. He managed to survive somehow, but he clearly was not right.
3) So how do we evaluate this?
A) Piccolo seems to have the best impression of Gotenks power, he was proven correct. Gotenks is very strong, but nowhere near Buu.
B) Gotenks is an overconfident jackass.
C) Other's confidence seems to rely on Gotenks' confidence. Their ability to sense probably isn't anywhere as good as Piccolo and they are perhaps gullible and naive.
3) So we know where Gotenks power tops out. He is strong enough to get absolutely wrecked by Majin Buu. We know the ceiling, but how do we figure out the floor? Let's assume he's as strong as Majin Vegeta for now.
A) Piccolo is complimentary of Gotenks power, at a time like this, since Goku vs Buu has been established, is it really appropriate for Piccolo to be calling a power of Vegeta or less, very strong? We can't be sure.
B) Gotenks himself is confident. He has to be confident for some reason. Unless he can't sense ki at all. Can't judge movements etc. What is the source of Gotenks confidence? Goten/Trunks have sensed Majin Vegeta, Ssj3 Goku accurately as far as we know. We know Buu is pretty hard to read, but we know Vegeta was getting destroyed by Buu an Goku was fighting very well. For Gotenks to have any realistic confidence, he needs to be somewhere around Goku's level in his mind. He can be overcompensating and not judging Buu correctly, but he is most likely closer to Goku than he is to Vegeta. You can assume that the boys thought Goku was significantly more powerful than Buu as well in this theory based on some parts of the fight they saw.
C) Humans seem to be banking on Gotenks confidence and their ki sensing seems to be a bit out of whack in the saga, but logic dictates that someone who absolutely cannot beat Buu (Vegeta) coming back to life and having supreme confidence, most likely would not result in confidence in his statements. For the humans to think Gotenks has a chance, they need to know that his power is realistically in the ballpark. Vegeta could come back and be extremely confident and the chance they would believe him would be very low. The fact that they talk about Gotenks confidence does seem to suggest they don't think his power is enough, but it's enough for his confidence to sway them. Piccolo is more of a realist and the others are more hopeful, which results in there differing opinions.
Majin Buu >> Gotenks Ceiling >> Gotenks Floor >> Majin Vegeta
Piccolo's reactions of Base Gotenks and Ssj Kids (FP) at the lookout make a clear sign to this...
Base Gotenks >> Super Saiyan Kids >> Piccolo
Now, all this being said, if you want to take Gotenks and say he is a gag character that shouldn't be taken seriously, by all means. But if you are going to go by the story and what is shown, this is the proper method.
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Reasons for Gohan being Super Saiyan
The Art
SSJ Gohan:
SSJ 2 Gohan:
Notice Gohan differentiates between the forms here. We can clearly see the changes in the art. Gohan has more luscious hair, lightning, and a much sharper aura. This stays consistent with when Goku and Vegeta use Super Saiyan 2.
SSJ 2 Gohan?:
Clear change in art style here. This is chapter 261. Take a look at Goku and Vegeta using Super Saiyan 2 THREE chapters later within the same volume in chapter 264.
You can clearly see Vegeta changing from SSJ1 to SSJ2 here. The aura changes, to match what SSJ2 Gohan and Goku have both shown as well. So why would Gohan be drawn differently? Even 1 chapter later in 265 when Gohan transforms to fight Dabra again, he clearly displays the Super Saiyan aura.
Why Can't Gohan Transform Again?
To begin, Goku states that it took him time to be able to transform into Super Saiyan at will post Namek, and after a lot of practice he was able to do it at will.
What do we know about SSJ2? For Gohan at least, rage triggered his initial transformation against Cell - it was the direct catalyst causing the transformation. Gohan spent 7 years lounging around doing fuck all, and by the way Vegeta speaks to him it seems apparent that Gohan did pretty well no training after the Cell Games. I believe it's safe to say Gohan only used SSJ2 twice prior, both times against Cell. He doesn't seem to be able to use it at will in the Boo arc unless he is angry/enraged. The scan of SSJ Gohan I posted earlier shows that he was pretty damn enraged when :bitch was sodomizing his girl, and he still seemed pissed as fuck against Kibito. It served enough of a catalyst to let him transform.
Later on, Goku directly tells Gohan to get mad after watching him fail to turn SSJ2 in his first round against Dabra. Goku seems to see it too, and Gohan also knows that he can pull out a hell of a lot more power against Dabra and Boo, but he doesn't have the rage factor to let him pull it out. Should he have practiced controlling the form during the 7 years, he could have been able to use it at will as Goku and Vegeta could.
Logically speaking, Base Gotenks must be >> Majin Vegeta. Remember, this is POST Ssj3 Goku vs Fat Buu. The new standard thought line is that even Goku couldn't really get it done. Sure, the reader knows he probably could have based on Piccolo's thoughts. But it is questionable. Majin Vegeta is pure garbage at this point. Goku on the other hand is the new standard. You have to be somewhere around Goku to even think you can beat Majin Buu. Piccolo's statements that Base Gotenks is not capable downgrades him from Goku's level, but not so far as down to Vegeta's pathetic level.
Super Saiyan 3 Goku >= Majin Buu >> Base Gotenks >> Majin Vegeta is the proper chain imo.
Numerically let's see.
Ssj Gotenks 550
Ssj3 Goku 500
Majin Buu 400
Gotenks 220
Majin Vegeta 125
That's probably the most accurate representation of these events.
Guidelines.
1) Goten/Trunks have sensed both Vegeta vs Buu and Goku vs Buu. They are good ki sensors and know exactly where their dads stand.
2) Gotenks is extremely confident in base, sure he's overzealous, but you have to give his confidence some respect here, clearly if he is merely comparable to Majin Vegeta, there would be no hope. Krillin and Yamcha would not be capable of expressing hope either. Sure, they are more going off of his confidence, but even then, there are limits. Where I have him at, gives us a chance to make all of there statements work.
3) Piccolo knows for a fact Gotenks cannot win. Piccolo's sensing is most accurate here, he can clearly see the divide between Goku (what's needed to truly beat/contend with Buu) and what Gotenks brings to the table. Nothing about Piccolo's statements suggest he is only as strong as Vegeta, if he was, Piccolo would probably mention, You are only as strong as Vegeta and look how that turned out. Everything about the entire groups statements point to Base Gotenks >> Vegeta.
Fearless Zamasu wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:54 pm
Gotenks needs to be stronger than Majin Boo who fought Goku in order to gain that confidence lol, but he got his ass kicked which means that Gotenks is a full of shit and shouldn't be taken seriously.
Well the problem with that logic is that every time someone is wrong, then what? We just randomly assign their value? That is not logical. You need to make it like a math equation. There's no reason to drop him down anymore levels than necessary. Same thing for overestimating on our part, we shouldn't radically assume a character is much stronger than suggested. So we set up a bit of a chart here to determine. Asking questions is always best.
1) How strong do the characters say Gotenks is?
A) Piccolo says although he is very strong, he has no chance against Buu.
B) Gotenks thinks he can win, easily.
C) The rest of the crew thinks he can do it, but are banking on Gotenks confidence.
2) What happens in the fight?
We don't know for sure, but Gotenks got his ass kicked, badly. He managed to survive somehow, but he clearly was not right.
3) So how do we evaluate this?
A) Piccolo seems to have the best impression of Gotenks power, he was proven correct. Gotenks is very strong, but nowhere near Buu.
B) Gotenks is an overconfident jackass.
C) Other's confidence seems to rely on Gotenks' confidence. Their ability to sense probably isn't anywhere as good as Piccolo and they are perhaps gullible and naive.
3) So we know where Gotenks power tops out. He is strong enough to get absolutely wrecked by Majin Buu. We know the ceiling, but how do we figure out the floor? Let's assume he's as strong as Majin Vegeta for now.
A) Piccolo is complimentary of Gotenks power, at a time like this, since Goku vs Buu has been established, is it really appropriate for Piccolo to be calling a power of Vegeta or less, very strong? We can't be sure.
B) Gotenks himself is confident. He has to be confident for some reason. Unless he can't sense ki at all. Can't judge movements etc. What is the source of Gotenks confidence? Goten/Trunks have sensed Majin Vegeta, Ssj3 Goku accurately as far as we know. We know Buu is pretty hard to read, but we know Vegeta was getting destroyed by Buu an Goku was fighting very well. For Gotenks to have any realistic confidence, he needs to be somewhere around Goku's level in his mind. He can be overcompensating and not judging Buu correctly, but he is most likely closer to Goku than he is to Vegeta. You can assume that the boys thought Goku was significantly more powerful than Buu as well in this theory based on some parts of the fight they saw.
C) Humans seem to be banking on Gotenks confidence and their ki sensing seems to be a bit out of whack in the saga, but logic dictates that someone who absolutely cannot beat Buu (Vegeta) coming back to life and having supreme confidence, most likely would not result in confidence in his statements. For the humans to think Gotenks has a chance, they need to know that his power is realistically in the ballpark. Vegeta could come back and be extremely confident and the chance they would believe him would be very low. The fact that they talk about Gotenks confidence does seem to suggest they don't think his power is enough, but it's enough for his confidence to sway them. Piccolo is more of a realist and the others are more hopeful, which results in there differing opinions.
Majin Buu >> Gotenks Ceiling >> Gotenks Floor >> Majin Vegeta
Piccolo's reactions of Base Gotenks and Ssj Kids (FP) at the lookout make a clear sign to this...
Base Gotenks >> Super Saiyan Kids >> Piccolo
Now, all this being said, if you want to take Gotenks and say he is a gag character that shouldn't be taken seriously, by all means. But if you are going to go by the story and what is shown, this is the proper method.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reasons for Gohan being Super Saiyan
The Art
SSJ Gohan:
SSJ 2 Gohan:
Notice Gohan differentiates between the forms here. We can clearly see the changes in the art. Gohan has more luscious hair, lightning, and a much sharper aura. This stays consistent with when Goku and Vegeta use Super Saiyan 2.
SSJ 2 Gohan?:
Clear change in art style here. This is chapter 261. Take a look at Goku and Vegeta using Super Saiyan 2 THREE chapters later within the same volume in chapter 264.
You can clearly see Vegeta changing from SSJ1 to SSJ2 here. The aura changes, to match what SSJ2 Gohan and Goku have both shown as well. So why would Gohan be drawn differently? Even 1 chapter later in 265 when Gohan transforms to fight Dabra again, he clearly displays the Super Saiyan aura.
Why Can't Gohan Transform Again?
To begin, Goku states that it took him time to be able to transform into Super Saiyan at will post Namek, and after a lot of practice he was able to do it at will.
What do we know about SSJ2? For Gohan at least, rage triggered his initial transformation against Cell - it was the direct catalyst causing the transformation. Gohan spent 7 years lounging around doing fuck all, and by the way Vegeta speaks to him it seems apparent that Gohan did pretty well no training after the Cell Games. I believe it's safe to say Gohan only used SSJ2 twice prior, both times against Cell. He doesn't seem to be able to use it at will in the Boo arc unless he is angry/enraged. The scan of SSJ Gohan I posted earlier shows that he was pretty damn enraged when :bitch was sodomizing his girl, and he still seemed pissed as fuck against Kibito. It served enough of a catalyst to let him transform.
Later on, Goku directly tells Gohan to get mad after watching him fail to turn SSJ2 in his first round against Dabra. Goku seems to see it too, and Gohan also knows that he can pull out a hell of a lot more power against Dabra and Boo, but he doesn't have the rage factor to let him pull it out. Should he have practiced controlling the form during the 7 years, he could have been able to use it at will as Goku and Vegeta could.
