How do you interpret it?

[ahill1]

This line from old Kai:

Chapter: 504 (DBZ 310), P9.2-3
Context: as Vegetto beats up on Gohan-absorbed Boo
Kaioshin-Kibito: “H-he’s strong!!! Majin Boo there is helpless!!! To think that merging with the Potara would be this incredible…!!”
Elder Kaioshin: “Idiot, it’s because it was those two that they were able to go so far. Two of the top 3 masters in both the living world and afterlife have merged, after all. What’s more, two rivals have joined together. That’s definitely strongest.”

How do you interpret it? Does this mean Vegetto/Gogeta > predicted?

 

[Papasmurf]

I interpret it as the stronger the masters, the stronger the fusion, just like Gotenks >> those weakass metamorans who showed Goku the dance.

 

[ahill1]

I interpret it as the stronger the masters, the stronger the fusion, just like Gotenks >> those weakass metamorans who showed Goku the dance.

Does not it imply however that Goku and Vegeta were the main reasons of Vegetto's strength?

 

[sei'taer]

I've always interpreted it as the fusion of goku and vegeta was stronger than expected because of them and not the potora. Since the person who knows the most about the potora flat out shuts down the idea that the potora itself made them so strong.

So i don't see any reason gogeta should be that much weaker than vegetto.

 

[Papasmurf]

I interpret it as the stronger the masters, the stronger the fusion, just like Gotenks >> those weakass metamorans who showed Goku the dance.

Does not it imply however that Goku and Vegeta were the main reasons of Vegetto's strength?

and that reason is that they're two of the three greatest masters. And if the third master (either Gohan or Boo I guess) were to fuse with either of them, that'd end up producing an even stronger fusion since Gohan >>> Vegeta/Goku. That's all I see that statement being. No "Goku is a 10 and Vegeta is a 10 too, but they'd make a better result than two 20s because they're so goddamned special" about it.

 

[ahill1]

and that reason is that they're two of the three greatest masters. And if the third master (either Gohan or Boo I guess) were to fuse with either of them, that'd end up producing an even stronger fusion since Gohan >>> Vegeta/Goku. That's all I see that statement being. No "Goku is a 10 and Vegeta is a 10 too, but they'd make a better result than two 20s because they're so goddamned special" about it.

But that's what I don't get. Should not the Potara be as important as Goku and Vegeta?

 

[Papasmurf]

The Potara is important, they said overtly that its results are greater than Fusion. But if one of the fusees is crap, the fusion ultimately will be too, as seen with Elder Kaioshin and Goku's imagination of fusing with Satan or Dende. Kibitoshin isn't implied to be a match for even Kid Boo, but everyone seems to believe Goku and Vegeta would stand a much better chance had they fused via the dance, an inferior method - so the strength of the fusees is important. Of course it is. But if it somehow made the mode of fusing utterly irrelevant there's no reason that Kibitoshin would offer the earrings, implying there's a power difference good enough to warrant the drawback of being stuck as Vegetto.

 

[ahill1]

The Potara is important, they said overtly that its results are greater than Fusion.

But if the Potara were as important as Goku and Vegeta, why'd old Kai call Kibitoshin an idiot? It's not like Kibitoshin would be completely wrong, because the Potara also takes a hole as well.

But if it somehow made the mode of fusing utterly irrelevant there's no reason that Kibitoshin would offer the earrings, implying there's a power difference good enough to warrant the drawback of being stuck as Vegetto.

Well considering Gogeta could defeat even Super Boo, then there really shouldn't be a difference between fusing as Gogeta or Vegetto against Kid Boo, no?

Do you agree with this point of view?

Goku & Vegeta = Responsible for a major part of Vegito's power
Potara earrings = Responsible for a minor part of Vegito's power

 

[Papasmurf]

Basically what I'm saying is Vegetto >> Gogeta no matter what (in the same timeframe), but if the individual fusees were much stronger, that would overcome the difference between the Potara and the dance Fusion. As seen with Gogeta/Gotenks >> Kibitoshin. It's no different than base Goku far surpassing Kaioken x 4 Saiyan arc Goku by the time he fought the Ginyu Force.

And I'm not implying Gogeta's barely sufficient for Kid Boo, I'm noting the fact that they saw Vegetto as the better option - implying that despite the Saiyans hating the idea of being fused forever far more than just doing a dance to fuse for 30 minutes, Vegetto would've likely had much more ease defeating Kid Boo due to superior power, even though their enemy is pretty weak.

 

[ahill1]

Basically what I'm saying is Vegetto >> Gogeta no matter what (in the same timeframe), but if the individual fusees were much stronger, that would overcome the difference between the Potara and the dance Fusion. As seen with Gogeta/Gotenks >> Kibitoshin. It's no different than base Goku far surpassing Kaioken x 4 Saiyan arc Goku by the time he fought the Ginyu Force.

And I'm not implying Gogeta's barely sufficient for Kid Boo, I'm noting the fact that they saw Vegetto as the better option - implying that despite the Saiyans hating the idea of being fused forever far more than just doing a dance to fuse for 30 minutes, Vegetto would've likely had much more ease defeating Kid Boo due to superior power, even though their enemy is pretty weak.

According to Elder Kaioshin:

Goku (major component of Vegetto's strength) + Vegeta (major component of Vegetto) + Potara (minor) = Fusion Potara
Goku (major component of Gogeta) + Vegeta (major component of Gogeta) = Fusion Dance

Would not it imply Fusion Dance and Potara are close?

 

[Papasmurf]

The effects of Potara are greater than fusion = notable difference. If there wasn't, there'd be no reason for them to stomach a permanent fusion when both methods are clearly available.

But since both of them are so powerful, they make the best potara fusion and the best dance fusion. But there's still a difference that's clearly stated, even against a vastly weaker foe. I don't know what's so wrong with that simple logic.

Kibito + Kaioshin = 5, let's say, with the added boost of Potara to 10.

Goku + Vegeta = 40, and with Potara let's say they round up to 100 or so. Even without the added boost of Potara and maybe the rivalry thing, IDK, they still come up way higher than the next strongest Potara Fusion due to those two being nowhere near the top 3 masters. Simple.

 

[ahill1]

What's your instance on the Boohan vs Gogeta SSJ3?

 

[Papasmurf]

I dunno... my stance is that Gogeta's definitely stronger than regular Super boo, and maybe Gohan and Gotenks-Boo, but he might not finish Gohan-Boo due to his time limit as a SSJ3 fusion? Who knows. toriyama wanks Goku and Vegeta like no tomorrow these days, so if he rewrote that part Gogeta might be godhaxed to DBS Future Trunks levels

 

[ahill1]

Yeah I really don't know where I'd have Gogeta. This whole fusion thing is a mess.

 

[Papasmurf]

I mean he has to be stronger than regular Super Boo, and assuming Gohan's suppressed power doesn't massively up the fusion, stronger than Gotenks-Boo as well, but Gohan-Boo is implied to be powerful enough to make Vegetto at least surprised that he can beat him so easily... even though there shouldn't be that big of a difference between absorbing Gotenks and someone who's not even close to double him. All very weird, but Toriyama did say he didn't write with numbers in mind after the Freeza saga.

 

[ahill1]

I mean he has to be stronger than regular Super Boo, and assuming Gohan's suppressed power doesn't massively up the fusion, stronger than Gotenks-Boo as well, but Gohan-Boo is implied to be powerful enough to make Vegetto at least surprised that he can beat him so easily... even though there shouldn't be that big of a difference between absorbing Gotenks and someone who's not even close to double him. All very weird, but Toriyama did say he didn't write with numbers in mind after the Freeza saga.

Boohan was also going to say "It wasn't supposed to be that way" to which Vegetto pretty much readed his mind and told before him, right? This implies Gogeta at least couldn't make a fool of Boo.

Is Gokhan (Metamorian) = Gogeta?

 

[Papasmurf]

I'd assume so, since Vegeta is equal to Goku in base and SSJ/2, and Gohan would need to suppress to that level.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

There's no evidence that Gogeta would be weaker than Boohan.

 

[sei'taer]

The effects of Potara are greater than fusion = notable difference. If there wasn't, there'd be no reason for them to stomach a permanent fusion when both methods are clearly available.

The only reason they used the potora over the dance is because they didn't think buu would let them do the dance.

Goku clearly thought the fusion dance with gohan was enough to defeat gotenks buu, so there's no reason to assume a fusion dance with vegeta would be that much different given goku being the common denominator. And then the fusion of goku and vegeta was proven to be so much stronger on top of that.

 

[ahill1]

Goku and Vegeta were talking for a rather long time, so I'd assume they had time to do the dance. He could also teleport to Kaioshin's realm to do it there or to where Dende was when Boo reached them. He only considered the Potara an option.