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Goku could have just grab Gohan to Kaioshin realm and teach him how to fuse too but he didn't.ahill1 said:
How do you interpret it?
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sei'taer said:
Bit of a bump, but I'm bored and Potara's being talked about a lot as of late anyway
I was talking about when Old Kaioshin unhesitatingly told Kibitoshin to offer his Potara to the two when Kid Boo appeared and was doing absolutely nothing in front of them for like 5 minutes. During this time he even looked at his crystal ball and cursed that they won't try the dance Fusion after crushing their earrings, clearly demonstrating this was an option. If Potara is still considered a better alternative despite the permanence of it, there's nothing whatsoever disputing the fact that it creates a better fusion. This is stated and repeatedly reaffirmed, nothing even so much as brings it into question other than a warped understanding of two of the strongest masters creating the strongest fusion - which is the case for the dance Fusion as well. The two weak metamorans created a result that was nothing compared to Gotenks, and conversely a Potara fusion with Satan or Dende would also be very weak because one or both the powers merging are weak.
Doesn't mean Vegetto > Gogeta isn't valid, because the guy who's expertly informed in both methods stresses the effects of the former fusion are greater. Just not enough to upset the massive power difference between Vegeta + Goku and the far weaker Kibito + Kaioshin, since Gogeta is considered an option against Boo, but Kibitoshin isn't. But Vegetto is a better option than Gogeta despite being almost impossible to separate. If there's any good rebuttal to this, I'd like to hear one because it's never been brought on the table.
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Papasmurf said:sei'taer said:
Bit of a bump, but I'm bored and Potara's being talked about a lot as of late anyway
I was talking about when Old Kaioshin unhesitatingly told Kibitoshin to offer his Potara to the two when Kid Boo appeared and was doing absolutely nothing in front of them for like 5 minutes. During this time he even looked at his crystal ball and cursed that they won't try the dance Fusion after crushing their earrings, clearly demonstrating this was an option. If Potara is still considered a better alternative despite the permanence of it, there's nothing whatsoever disputing the fact that it creates a better fusion. This is stated and repeatedly reaffirmed, nothing even so much as brings it into question other than a warped understanding of two of the strongest masters creating the strongest fusion - which is the case for the dance Fusion as well. The two weak metamorans created a result that was nothing compared to Gotenks, and conversely a Potara fusion with Satan or Dende would also be very weak because one or both the powers merging are weak.
Doesn't mean Vegetto > Gogeta isn't valid, because the guy who's expertly informed in both methods stresses the effects of the former fusion are greater. Just not enough to upset the massive power difference between Vegeta + Goku and the far weaker Kibito + Kaioshin, since Gogeta is considered an option against Boo, but Kibitoshin isn't. But Vegetto is a better option than Gogeta despite being almost impossible to separate. If there's any good rebuttal to this, I'd like to hear one because it's never been brought on the table.
He tells kibitoshin to offer his potora twice, once when buu had already launched his attack to destroy the earth and there wasn't enough time for him to teleport and give the potora, let alone the dance. And once when goku and vegeta refuse fusion entirely. Him looking into the ball and being upset that they won't fuse occurs after all of that.
None of that really implies anything about the resulting strength of potora vs dance.
A fusion of goku and vegeta was far stronger than anyone expected. There's no warped understanding to be had here. The potora are stated to not be the cause of them being that strong, so there's no reason a dance fusion wouldn't be equally as stronger than expected.
I've never really argued that potora isn't greater than the dance, just that this BS of SSJ vegetto > SSJ3 gogeta, or even base vegetto > SSJ gogeto is outlandish.
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I am aware that he told Kibitoshin to offer up the Potara multiple times. But after they managed to teleport back and no one had any idea that Boo would copy it and chase them there, there was no urgency of Boo coming to attack them, only the fact that he'd begun to regenerate and would continue his destruction. But even in that situation, Potara is considered the better option despite the permanence of it, as well as after Boo arrived and was standing around - Old Kaioshin only hopes they'd try the dance as a secondary option after they refuse Potara. So in two separate timeframes, the Potara is preferred despite heavier drawbacks and there being nothing interfering the dance, clearly illustrating the fusion is inferior as an option in his mind. Hell, Goku was aware of the two not needing to equalize battle powers and yet had to be told Potara's so powerful SSJ won't be necessary.
If there's any implication of there being only a slight difference in result, I'm not seeing it, old Kaioshin's done this song and dance about it being the better fusion (and multiple times) in the first chapters he introduced it in.
The Potara has a greater effect with greater two fighters that fuse, just like the dance fusion, and these two were 2 of the 3 strongest people in all the worlds. That never once showed the dance Fusion would be nearly as powerful, but certainly stronger than a dance fusion of two weaker warriors, like Gotenks. This is obvious since he's useful against a guy twice as powerful as the latter. Doesn't make him close to Vegetto, but the closest - the difference between them is the difference between both fusions, which Toriyama made clear with the statement that the base form of Potara is plenty enough in a situation where Goku presumed they'd need SSJ despite Gohan not powering down in Potara (and this is after he was already told Potara > Fusion).
I always chose to see it as base Vegetto >= SSJ/whatever Gogeta, no one's stopping you from dissenting, but I see nothing to give Gogeta more credit than he's given, which is that Goku fusing with someone suppressed to his level can beat Boo.
If there's any implication of there being only a slight difference in result, I'm not seeing it, old Kaioshin's done this song and dance about it being the better fusion (and multiple times) in the first chapters he introduced it in.
The Potara has a greater effect with greater two fighters that fuse, just like the dance fusion, and these two were 2 of the 3 strongest people in all the worlds. That never once showed the dance Fusion would be nearly as powerful, but certainly stronger than a dance fusion of two weaker warriors, like Gotenks. This is obvious since he's useful against a guy twice as powerful as the latter. Doesn't make him close to Vegetto, but the closest - the difference between them is the difference between both fusions, which Toriyama made clear with the statement that the base form of Potara is plenty enough in a situation where Goku presumed they'd need SSJ despite Gohan not powering down in Potara (and this is after he was already told Potara > Fusion).
I always chose to see it as base Vegetto >= SSJ/whatever Gogeta, no one's stopping you from dissenting, but I see nothing to give Gogeta more credit than he's given, which is that Goku fusing with someone suppressed to his level can beat Boo.
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The interruption i get is that Goku's drive to always be a better fighter & Vegeta's drive to be as great or greater than Goku is what added to Vegetto's strength.ahill1 said:
Plus their potential a natural Ingenuity to go even further.
This is also why i think any fusion with Gohan would've failed & why i think Akira Toriyama saying Gohan has the most potential then anyone is wrong.
I don't see Gohan having more potential then anyone when Gohan does absolutely nothing with it.
Goku & Vegeta on their own has accomplished more in terms of fighting skills & abilities then Gohan has on his own.
Gohan may have had more ki yes, but they have far more potential to grow further.
Potential
having or showing the capacity to become or develop into something in the future:
latent qualities or abilities that may be developed and lead to future success or usefulness:
Goku was the 1st to reach SuperSaiyan
Vegeta was the 2nd to reach SuperSaiyan on his own motivated by Goku reaching SuperSaiyan own his own.
Gohan needed training & his father telling him how to do it.
If it wasn't for Android 16, PerfectCell & Goku, Gohan would not have reached SuperSaiyan 2 1st.
Goku was the 1st to reach SuperSaiyan 3.
Vegeta increased his strength to rival teen Gohan from Cell games.
Gohan became the Great Saiyaman
Goku/Vegeta SuperSaiyan 2 surpassed SuperSaiyan Teen Gohan.
SuperSaiyan 2 Gohan couldn't was losing to Dabura.
Gohan needed OldKai to unleash Ultimate
By the end of Z SuperSaiyan 3 Goku surpassed Ultimate.
Not to mention the number of techniques Vegeta & Goku developed.
That's why i see Goku/Vegeta having far more potential then Gohan & why Vegetto is so powerful.
