How do you view the Super Saiyan boost?

[GSM123]

But he doesn't just say that he'll be the strongest, he states that "the conditions will be the same", which directly tells us that nobody will be at an advantage or disadvantage with these rules.

The quote from Trunks really holds no relevancy here. Goku had just returned from the dead and was obviously not displaying his full power.

"The conditions are the same" because Vegeta's "superior position doesn't change". It's all about his advantage.

I don't understand your point here in all honesty. The point that I'm making isn't relying on the fact that Gohan did become stronger, or by how much. It's that Goku/Gohan never disputed Kaioshin's assertion that Gohan's Super Saiyan would also increase in power. Goku even was pondering whether or not he'd be good enough to beat Boo now, and he was only considering his Base power at the time of the statement.

Because it's irrelevant. Bottom line of Kaioshin's point is "Gohan has gotten stronger", but neither Goku nor Gohan are sure of that. Whether or not SSJ works like that doesn't change the fact that Gohan may not be stronger than Boo.

 

[SSJ2]

"The conditions are the same" because Vegeta's "superior position doesn't change". It's all about his advantage.

That's a little bit too convenient. We see the exact same thing for Goten and Trunks. Trunks was shown to be slightly superior to Goten in Base when they fought during the Budokai. Similarly, his ki as a Super Saiyan was slightly stronger than Goten's. It's painfully obvious that Super Saiyan provides both of them with the same boost in power.

Because it's irrelevant. Bottom line of Kaioshin's point is "Gohan has gotten stronger", but neither Goku nor Gohan are sure of that. Whether or not SSJ works like that doesn't change the fact that Gohan may not be stronger than Boo.
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It's not irrelevant at all. The premise was laid out in the manga and wasn't contradicted. It's also not true that Goku wasn't sure that Gohan had gotten stronger.

The very act of questioning whether or not Gohan could beat Boo shows that Goku knew that Gohan had improved. His speculation had to be based on something, and clearly that was Gohan's Base power that he had been displaying.

 

[GSM123]

[mention]Super Saiyan[/mention] Correlation doesn’t imply causation. The boys have similar experience with the form, so it’s only natural they’d have around the same power. Not like the boosts are completely random lol.

A better example would be SSJ Cabba = SSJ Vegeta despite this being Cabba’s first transformation, but that’s Super only and even there it’s implied Vegeta held back.

I stand corrected. Goku was with Gohan for most of the time the boys were learning fusion right? Even so, shouldn’t Goku be capable of telling how strong Gohan is just by his base? Granted Boo’s cloudy Ki would confuse things, but Goku could tell Gotenks would beat Boo even before he existed.

SSJ is a power up based on Ki rather than physical power, so how would working out in base form improve SSJ? From what we have seen, you either do mental training in base (e.g. Goku meditating in the Rosat), or you do the working out as a SSJ (e.g. Gohan in the Rosat, Goku in the Afterlife). There’s no improving your max by training while you’re suppressed, nothing noteworthy at least. Gohan himself didn’t find his gains anything impressive overall.

 

[SSJ2]

So it's not completely random... so what are you basing it on? Your own bias? Having similar experience in the form is nothing more than your own headcanon. Show me some concrete facts within the manga that support the boost being different for every Saiyan. And Super holds no relevancy in this discussion.

I stand corrected. Goku was with Gohan for most of the time the boys were learning fusion right? Even so, shouldn’t Goku be capable of telling how strong Gohan is just by his base? Granted Boo’s cloudy Ki would confuse things, but Goku could tell Gotenks would beat Boo even before he existed.

These are exactly the reasons why we should expect a predictable boost. How would Goku be able to tell Gohan's strength purely from his Base form if he had no idea what type of Super Saiyan boost to expect from him? Same with Gotenks. Goku had never seen Gotenks before and had no clue how powerful he would be beyond his own estimations. It's ridiculous to assume Goku is doing some next level math in his mind based on assumptions of how the boys' Super Saiyan boost will be while fused. Clearly he has a pretty good idea of how strong they will be, and nothing contradicted his estimation. Sounds predictable to me.

SSJ is a power up based on Ki rather than physical power, so how would working out in base form improve SSJ? From what we have seen, you either do mental training in base (e.g. Goku meditating in the Rosat), or you do the working out as a SSJ (e.g. Gohan in the Rosat, Goku in the Afterlife). There’s no improving your max by training while you’re suppressed, nothing noteworthy at least. Gohan himself didn’t find his gains anything impressive overall.

Ridiculous. This is the first time I've heard something so nonsensical lmao. Why would anyone physically train in their lowest forms if they gained no power in their stronger forms? Why isn't Vegeta training in Super Saiyan 2 in the Boo arc? He wants to improve his Base/SSJ forms just for the fun of it? I thought he desperately wanted to close the gap on Goku and still turned out weaker. Pretty damn funny that he'd waste time training in Base in anticipation for Goku being stronger than himself.

Spoiler

Not sure what you're on about when saying Gohan was suppressed. That is never stated or implied in the manga. More headcanon.

 

[GSM123]

So it's not completely random... so what are you basing it on? Your own bias? Having similar experience in the form is nothing more than your own headcanon. Show me some concrete facts within the manga that support the boost being different for every Saiyan. And Super holds no relevancy in this discussion.

I'm basing on what the story tells us.

Sure, I'll get you some evidence.

Goku and co. look for higher forms of SSJ when in the Rosat. Vegeta says the gains made post Rosat come from powering up their SSJ powers. You don't think when a SSJ unlocks the Grade forms or SSJ2 their base power shoots up, do you?

Chapter: 366 (DBZ 172), P1.1-2
Kame-sennin: “Aim even higher than Super Saiyan, you say? Is that possible…?!”
Goku: “I dunno…But it looks like I definitely won’t be able to beat these opponents without doing at least that…I’ll train for about 1 year, and if it’s no good, I’ll give up.”

Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P7.7
Vegeta: “They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! [ ] They’ve thought this through…”

Teen Gohan's power is only noted as having decreased when he's a SSJ2, presumably due to his anger.

Chapter: 423 (DBZ 229), P4.1
Vegeta: “Your body’s gotten rusty. No matter how peaceful it may be, you should still train just in case.” (Only notes his body, not his Ki)

Chapter: 444 (DBZ 250), P7.1-4
Gohan: “Well, I’ve become a Super Saiyan. Now what? Is it alright if I fight like this?”
Kibito: “…Wh-what tremendous power…I can’t believe he’s a being of the lower world!”
Vegeta: “…Hmph…That bastard, he was far, far better when he killed Cell. It’s because he slacked off in his training during peacetime…”
Kaioshin: “…No, even so this is magnificent energy, more so than I imagined…I wonder if I’ll be able to stop this power…”
Goku: “…Stop it?”

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P3.1-2
Context: as Gohan remembers Goku’s advice to get angry
Gohan: “I-I am angry…! I’m angry, but…[it’s not] like it was ba-back then…”

Goku and Vegeta show surprise towards each other's SSJ2 powers, and Goku refers to SSJ2 as "maximum power". The name "SSJ2" didn't exist until Goku made it up to drag Babidi and Boo, until then they were all just powers ups in the form.

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P8.1-4, P9.4
Context: as Goku and Vegeta are about to fight
Goku: “I don’t wanna take any damage from you and have it become Majin Boo’s energy…So I’m gona end this quickly, at maximum power.”
Vegeta: “I’m looking forward to this…Show me the fruits of your training in the afterlife. *Goku transforms into Super Saiyan 2* Just as I’d expect. Your power is greater than Gohan’s was back then!”
*Vegeta transforms into a Super Saiyan 2 as well*
Goku: “This don’t look like it’s gonna end quickly…”

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P10.3-4, P11.2-3
Context: after Goku and Vegeta fight for a while
Goku: “Un-unbelievable…I thought I trained considerably in the afterlife…But we’re completely even…You trained more than me…”
Vegeta: “…No, that’s not it…I think I did perform more special training than you, but you’re a greater genius than I am…No matter how much time passed, this gap wouldn’t change…I realized this, when you fought with that monster Babidi sent…It was a shock…That’s why I secretly resolved myself…[ ] At the tournament, the people who knew that pair who Babidi made into his underlings said that they had become far stronger than before…I remembered that, and I thought…That if I were taken over by him too, then the gap between you and me would vanish…And I was right…”

The very act of suppression is also a shrink in the boost (Unless you think they're also suppressing their base forms that don't even exist while they're transformed), but that's a cheap argument.

Also, complaining about "headcanon" "facts from the manga" and your multipliers overall after giving a different set of multipliers for fusions altogether is rich :umad

These are exactly the reasons why we should expect a predictable boost. How would Goku be able to tell Gohan's strength purely from his Base form if he had no idea what type of Super Saiyan boost to expect from him? Same with Gotenks. Goku had never seen Gotenks before and had no clue how powerful he would be beyond his own estimations. It's ridiculous to assume Goku is doing some next level math in his mind based on assumptions of how the boys' Super Saiyan boost will be while fused. Clearly he has a pretty good idea of how strong they will be, and nothing contradicted his estimation. Sounds predictable to me.

What are you even trying to say though? There has to be a fixed boost, but Goku wasn't doing any calculations in his head? Make your mind man.

Honestly, I think there's the reason Goku called merging a gamble. He just saw two Metamorians getting insanely strong and though if two SSJs merged they should be SSJ3 tier. If fusing is more than addition, then 2 SSJ1s > SSJ2 already

Ridiculous. This is the first time I've heard something so nonsensical lmao. Why would anyone physically train in their lowest forms if they gained no power in their stronger forms? Why isn't Vegeta training in Super Saiyan 2 in the Boo arc? He wants to improve his Base/SSJ forms just for the fun of it? I thought he desperately wanted to close the gap on Goku and still turned out weaker. Pretty damn funny that he'd waste time training in Base in anticipation for Goku being stronger than himself.

Spoiler

Not sure what you're on about when saying Gohan was suppressed. That is never stated or implied in the manga. More headcanon.

That's called warming up for you. In Gohan's case it's said the sword would give the wielder unlimited power, so transforming is sorta irrelevant.

I can actually see training in base yielding some gains, but they'd be pretty insignificant. How does it make any sense for a training that's a big deal when your PL is 10 be anything noteworthy when your PL is 500? That's like if you went to the gym and did my work out routine. It's nothing.

Gohan's full power is Super Saiyan. Gohan did not train as a Super Saiyan (Most of the time). Not transforming is a form of suppression in itself.

 

[SSJ2]

I'm basing on what the story tells us.

Sure, I'll get you some evidence.

Goku and co. look for higher forms of SSJ when in the Rosat. Vegeta says the gains made post Rosat come from powering up their SSJ powers. You don't think when a SSJ unlocks the Grade forms or SSJ2 their base power shoots up, do you?

They look for higher forms of Super Saiyan because it will give them access to greater power. Surely that isn't so difficult to understand. Goku had stated that there was no way that he or Vegeta could beat Cell unless they surpassed Super Saiyan. This ended up being false, but if you were considering Goku's power at the time of entering the RoSaT, he needed a higher power to beat Cell. And obviously not. But if Goku's Base form improves then I'd logically assume that the grade forms/SSJ2 would also improve along with it.

Teen Gohan's power is only noted as having decreased when he's a SSJ2, presumably due to his anger.

When did he give anyone a chance to assess his all out Base power?

The very act of suppression is also a shrink in the boost (Unless you think they're also suppressing their base forms that don't even exist while they're transformed), but that's a cheap argument.

Also, complaining about "headcanon" "facts from the manga" and your multipliers overall after giving a different set of multipliers for fusions altogether is rich

What are you referencing with suppression?

And please do not embarrass yourself further. When have I ever tried to argue in a factual setting that fusions have a different Super Saiyan boost.

For power level lists I give fusions a 4x boost for personal preference, but nothing supports it being any different than what the SEG states.
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Read what I said and stop behaving like a clown.

What are you even trying to say though? There has to be a fixed boost, but Goku wasn't doing any calculations in his head? Make your mind man.

Honestly, I think there's the reason Goku called merging a gamble. He just saw two Metamorians getting insanely strong and though if two SSJs merged they should be SSJ3 tier. If fusing is more than addition, then 2 SSJ1s > SSJ2 already

Yet again I don't know what you're arguing here. Hell, I don't think even you know what you're arguing. I literally said that there is a fixed boost because Goku is able to make these calculations in these head. He's able to accurately deduce that Gohan wasn't quite up to Boo's level post Z Sword, and he's again able to deduce that SSJ Gotenks would usurp his own SSJ3 power despite having only seen fusion once. Pretty accurate calculation if he's pulling their Super Saiyan boost out of his ass.

That's called warming up for you. In Gohan's case it's said the sword would give the wielder unlimited power, so transforming is sorta irrelevant.

I can actually see training in base yielding some gains, but they'd be pretty insignificant. How does it make any sense for a training that's a big deal when your PL is 10 be anything noteworthy when your PL is 500? That's like if you went to the gym and did my work out routine. It's nothing.

Gohan's full power is Super Saiyan. Gohan did not train as a Super Saiyan (Most of the time). Not transforming is a form of suppression in itself.
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If you can prove that they were warming up I'd be glad to listen. Toriyama stated on that page that the contestants were "working hard" to finish up their training, and we can see that Gohan and Vegeta are straining themselves. Doesn't look anything like warm-up to me.

Well you're correct in that training in Super Saiyan should be more effective, seen by Goku waiting for Gohan to learn the form to start sparring in the RoSaT. However, we've only seen that being necessary for duo training. When training solo, I don't see how the training routine would change whether you were in Super Saiyan or Base aside from providing more strain on yourself (which there is no strain on FPSSJ anyway.

Your argument is flawed because Base and Super Saiyan are separate things. You're pretty well arguing that Goku could infinitely fight someone in Base because he is "suppressing" his power. If Goku fought Cell in Base at equal powers the battle would have gone exactly the same. It would have been equally as strenuous on his body/stamina over time. The form he is in serves as a way to generate more power and nothing more. Training all out in Base will certainly strain the body.

 

[GSM123]

They look for higher forms of Super Saiyan because it will give them access to greater power. Surely that isn't so difficult to understand. Goku had stated that there was no way that he or Vegeta could beat Cell unless they surpassed Super Saiyan. This ended up being false, but if you were considering Goku's power at the time of entering the RoSaT, he needed a higher power to beat Cell. And obviously not. But if Goku's Base form improves then I'd logically assume that the grade forms/SSJ2 would also improve along with it.

False how? Goku just said he needed more power to fight Cell. He came up to fight Cell was stronger. The goal was achieved. The Vegeta stated something was different also:

Chapter: 377 (DBZ 183), P8.3-5
Gohan: “Dad, am I going to get in the way of your training?”
Goku: “At first, yeah. But once you’re able to become a Super Saiyan, you’ll really come in handy as a training partner, Gohan. That’s my ideal, anyway. Obviously I intend to obtain power surpassing Super Saiyan. I want to be stronger than anyone, after all. But Gohan, I intend for you to even further surpass me.”

Chapter: 390 (DBZ 196), P6.1-2
Context: Goku and Gohan emerged from the Room of Spirit and Time
Vegeta (to self): “…What’s with them?!...Is that Super Saiyan…!? No…It has a slightly different atmosphere…They’re being so natural in that state…”

They do go back in forth between saying it's SSJ and not SSJ, but that's just semantics. Just like they do with SSJ2 sometimes.

When did he give anyone a chance to assess his all out Base power?

Estimatives can be made. Goku knew Piccolo's post Rosat strength with a glance, and so did Trunks depending on your stance. Vegeta also basically ignores Gohan's fit when he tried to fight :bitch, though it's arguable he had a rage boost covering up his slack.

And please do not embarrass yourself further. When have I ever tried to argue in a factual setting that fusions have a different Super Saiyan boost.

The title of the thread is "How do YOU view...". So logically nothing here is to be taken as fact unless noted. I might have said that I don't get the other points (Otherwise I wouldn't stick with mine), but I'm not stoping you from following them lmao.

Yet again I don't know what you're arguing here. Hell, I don't think even you know what you're arguing. I literally said that there is a fixed boost because Goku is able to make these calculations in these head. He's able to accurately deduce that Gohan wasn't quite up to Boo's level post Z Sword, and he's again able to deduce that SSJ Gotenks would usurp his own SSJ3 power despite having only seen fusion once. Pretty accurate calculation if he's pulling their Super Saiyan boost out of his ass.

Lol I said that I wasn't understanding yours.

Goku wasn't able to accurately gauge anything about Gohan though. He flat out said he didn't know who was stronger. As for fusion, Goku planned for the boys to fuse as SSJs, he tells Piccolo about how they should do that way and how it's trickier for some reason. No need for headaches over multipliers here.

But I'm thinking this also calls for a explanation on your side. Do you think Goku expected Gotenks to be 20x stronger than Majin Boo or something, or for Base Gotenks to be weaker than he ended up being? Or do you think Goku only had a vague idea?

If you can prove that they were warming up I'd be glad to listen. Toriyama stated on that page that the contestants were "working hard" to finish up their training, and we can see that Gohan and Vegeta are straining themselves. Doesn't look anything like warm-up to me.

Well you're correct in that training in Super Saiyan should be more effective, seen by Goku waiting for Gohan to learn the form to start sparring in the RoSaT. However, we've only seen that being necessary for duo training. When training solo, I don't see how the training routine would change whether you were in Super Saiyan or Base aside from providing more strain on yourself (which there is no strain on FPSSJ anyway.

Your argument is flawed because Base and Super Saiyan are separate things. You're pretty well arguing that Goku could infinitely fight someone in Base because he is "suppressing" his power. If Goku fought Cell in Base at equal powers the battle would have gone exactly the same. It would have been equally as strenuous on his body/stamina over time. The form he is in serves as a way to generate more power and nothing more. Training all out in Base will certainly strain the body.

Well we know for a fact it's not their toughest training, since solo training doesn't hold a candle compared to the SSJ sparring from before. These are just random snippets of the training, the point of what they're doing could be anything; could be about getting stronger, could be about honing their skills, stamina, a warm up like I said before.
For example: Goku is shown only meditating, which doesn't yield gains by itself; it helped Goku imagine power up methods in the Rosat, but he's not implied to be any stronger because of it. Goes to show the variety of what the Z Fighters were doing while in training.

Well I think the routine also changes if they're solo. If Goku only tried lifting 40 tons while as a SSJ, there would be no gains because it's already easy for him. But if he tried this while in base he'd get much stronger, and by your logic much stronger as a SSJ despite this being a easy training for his SSJ form :mikey

Ironically, the very thing I'm trying to argue here is that Base and SSJ are completely different things in the overall picture. Maybe some improvements in base could make a difference since it's well, the base of it all, but not much because of what I said above. They should be like different people when transformed: Their entire structure changes, down to the very Ki signature.

 

[SSJ2]

False how? Goku just said he needed more power to fight Cell. He came up to fight Cell was stronger. The goal was achieved. The Vegeta stated something was different also:

False because Goku didn't need to gain a new transformation to become stronger than Imperfect Cell, who he initially said he needed to surpass Super Saiyan to beat.

The title of the thread is "How do YOU view...". So logically nothing here is to be taken as fact unless noted. I might have said that I don't get the other points (Otherwise I wouldn't stick with mine), but I'm not stoping you from following them lmao.

Yeah, except you were the one who said that anyone who believes in a multiplier is kidding themselves, so you're pretty well arguing that your opinion is fact. It's not bitch.

Goku wasn't able to accurately gauge anything about Gohan though. He flat out said he didn't know who was stronger. As for fusion, Goku planned for the boys to fuse as SSJs, he tells Piccolo about how they should do that way and how it's trickier for some reason. No need for headaches over multipliers here.

But I'm thinking this also calls for a explanation on your side. Do you think Goku expected Gotenks to be 20x stronger than Majin Boo or something, or for Base Gotenks to be weaker than he ended up being? Or do you think Goku only had a vague idea?

I'm not sure what you mean. Goku is the one who shut down the idea of Gohan beating Boo, leaving it somewhat open to interpretation. It sounds as though Goku knows Gohan is perhaps approaching Boo's tier but isn't quite strong enough to beat him. We saw him be direct with Piccolo in the Cell Games and say he had no chance against Cell, but the same didn't happen here.

Why does this need to be explained? All Goku said was that someone stronger than himself would appear to fight Boo, and that's exactly what happened. I'm not sure how you expect me to answer this when Goku never said the exact amount that Gotenks would surpass him by. He ended up being spot on, so it's clear that his guess was correct.

Well we know for a fact it's not their toughest training, since solo training doesn't hold a candle compared to the SSJ sparring from before. These are just random snippets of the training, the point of what they're doing could be anything; could be about getting stronger, could be about honing their skills, stamina, a warm up like I said before.
For example: Goku is shown only meditating, which doesn't yield gains by itself; it helped Goku imagine power up methods in the Rosat, but he's not implied to be any stronger because of it. Goes to show the variety of what the Z Fighters were doing while in training.

Actually according to the SEG, meditation does increase your total ki level.

It also says his image training/meditation was a means to raise his maximum ki, as muscle training has a limit.

All forms of training contribute to making gains overall.

Well I think the routine also changes if they're solo. If Goku only tried lifting 40 tons while as a SSJ, there would be no gains because it's already easy for him. But if he tried this while in base he'd get much stronger, and by your logic much stronger as a SSJ despite this being a easy training for his SSJ form

That example falls flat on its face because Goku wouldn't be capable of training with 40 tons while in Base. He needed Super Saiyan just to hold the weight. He was training with 8 tons in Base and seemed to be content with that. Why wouldn't he use Super Saiyan and use 1000 tons to make it more challenging if that would have lead to greater gains?