How high are Nr. #19 & #20?

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Pre: Weaker than Freeza
Post: Probably around Trunks Debut

 

[GSM123]

I have him weaker than Freeza since I don't consider Piccolo stronger than Freeza anymore.

I thought that was illegal.

 

[Void]

I have him weaker than Freeza since I don't consider Piccolo stronger than Freeza anymore.

????

 

[Six Trails]

I have him weaker than Freeza since I don't consider Piccolo stronger than Freeza anymore.

????

Is there a problem sir?

 

[Void]

I have him weaker than Freeza since I don't consider Piccolo stronger than Freeza anymore.

????

Is there a problem sir?

Care to elaborate on your position here?

 

[Flame]

I don't know why when I read this topic I thought this was talking about a different kind of high.

Anyways, they're stronger than Mecha Frieza. It wouldn't make sense for them not to be.

 

[Six Trails]

Care to elaborate on your position here?

Sure.

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.3-4
Tenshinhan: "Th-this is the man who took down Freeza...And he was helpless before these androids...I'll be frank...! No matter how strong Goku may be, he shouldn't be that different from Trunks or Vegeta..."

Chapter: 356 (DBZ 162), P3.1
God: "Things turned out this way against the androids...Even for that 'Trunks' boy who came from the future and instantly obliterated Freeza and his father...and even for Vegeta, whose abilities are even greater than Trunks..."

Trunks's feat of beating Freeza is still held in a high regard and is referenced when talking about how powerless he is compared to the Androids. That'd be a bit redundant if 19, 20, and Piccolo all easily surpassed any power from the Trunks saga. They also don't seem to talk about Trunks's power as if it's any different or significantly higher than his last appearance, and Piccolo is still weaker than Trunks.

Also, I know Piccolo's "confidence" will inevitably be brought up, and here is my counter to that:

Piccolo never references his own abilities in particular. He only says that he doesn't lack confidence in the group's ability to win.

Chapter: 337 (DBZ 143), P1.3-4, P2.1
Piccolo: "How about it, Son Goku...Frankly, do you think we can win against this enemy..."
Goku: "There's no way I could know that without even seeing them. I'll answer once I give it a try."
Piccolo: "You're pretty carefree...It's not like I lack confidence...However, I can’t clear this uneasy premonition from my mind..."

Keep in mind that there is a significant difference between this timeline and Trunks' timeline: Goku is actually around this time. This is even exemplified by Krillin later:

I also know Piccolo thinking he's grown too strong will be brought up, and here's my counter to that:

Again, Piccolo references the group as a whole.

Chapter: 347 (DBZ 153), P3.2-3
Piccolo: "It seems that in the original history, we were supposed to be wiped out by you two androids...But it looks like the future has changed somehow...Was it that you weren't as strong as we thought?...Or have we grown too strong?..."

Piccolo questioning their validity also doesn't necessarily require them to be so strong. They absorb energy, so it's possible for them to reach the level of "too strong for Trunks" in the future by absorbing more energy. If the Z Fighters never trained as rigorously in the future, then it's possible that the Z Fighters were killed by Androids weaker than the ones that Trunks faces. So they can still grow too strong without surpassing Trunks from 3 years prior.

:mikey

 

[Diamond Ryan]

Care to elaborate on your position here?

Sure.

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.3-4
Tenshinhan: "Th-this is the man who took down Freeza...And he was helpless before these androids...I'll be frank...! No matter how strong Goku may be, he shouldn't be that different from Trunks or Vegeta..."

Chapter: 356 (DBZ 162), P3.1
God: "Things turned out this way against the androids...Even for that 'Trunks' boy who came from the future and instantly obliterated Freeza and his father...and even for Vegeta, whose abilities are even greater than Trunks..."

Trunks's feat of beating Freeza is still held in a high regard and is referenced when talking about how powerless he is compared to the Androids. That'd be a bit redundant if 19, 20, and Piccolo all easily surpassed any power from the Trunks saga. They also don't seem to talk about Trunks's power as if it's any different or significantly higher than his last appearance, and Piccolo is still weaker than Trunks.

Also, I know Piccolo's "confidence" will inevitably be brought up, and here is my counter to that:

Piccolo never references his own abilities in particular. He only says that he doesn't lack confidence in the group's ability to win.

Chapter: 337 (DBZ 143), P1.3-4, P2.1
Piccolo: "How about it, Son Goku...Frankly, do you think we can win against this enemy..."
Goku: "There's no way I could know that without even seeing them. I'll answer once I give it a try."
Piccolo: "You're pretty carefree...It's not like I lack confidence...However, I can’t clear this uneasy premonition from my mind..."

Keep in mind that there is a significant difference between this timeline and Trunks' timeline: Goku is actually around this time. This is even exemplified by Krillin later:

I also know Piccolo thinking he's grown too strong will be brought up, and here's my counter to that:

Again, Piccolo references the group as a whole.

Chapter: 347 (DBZ 153), P3.2-3
Piccolo: "It seems that in the original history, we were supposed to be wiped out by you two androids...But it looks like the future has changed somehow...Was it that you weren't as strong as we thought?...Or have we grown too strong?..."

Piccolo questioning their validity also doesn't necessarily require them to be so strong. They absorb energy, so it's possible for them to reach the level of "too strong for Trunks" in the future by absorbing more energy. If the Z Fighters never trained as rigorously in the future, then it's possible that the Z Fighters were killed by Androids weaker than the ones that Trunks faces. So they can still grow too strong without surpassing Trunks from 3 years prior.

:mikey

 

[Fantastische Hure]

So,who high do you think they are now? At-least above 1st Form Freeza?

 

[GSM123]

Sure.

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.3-4
Tenshinhan: "Th-this is the man who took down Freeza...And he was helpless before these androids...I'll be frank...! No matter how strong Goku may be, he shouldn't be that different from Trunks or Vegeta..."

Chapter: 356 (DBZ 162), P3.1
God: "Things turned out this way against the androids...Even for that 'Trunks' boy who came from the future and instantly obliterated Freeza and his father...and even for Vegeta, whose abilities are even greater than Trunks..."

Trunks's feat of beating Freeza is still held in a high regard and is referenced when talking about how powerless he is compared to the Androids. That'd be a bit redundant if 19, 20, and Piccolo all easily surpassed any power from the Trunks saga. They also don't seem to talk about Trunks's power as if it's any different or significantly higher than his last appearance, and Piccolo is still weaker than Trunks.

Also, I know Piccolo's "confidence" will inevitably be brought up, and here is my counter to that:

Piccolo never references his own abilities in particular. He only says that he doesn't lack confidence in the group's ability to win.

Chapter: 337 (DBZ 143), P1.3-4, P2.1
Piccolo: "How about it, Son Goku...Frankly, do you think we can win against this enemy..."
Goku: "There's no way I could know that without even seeing them. I'll answer once I give it a try."
Piccolo: "You're pretty carefree...It's not like I lack confidence...However, I can’t clear this uneasy premonition from my mind..."

Keep in mind that there is a significant difference between this timeline and Trunks' timeline: Goku is actually around this time. This is even exemplified by Krillin later:

I also know Piccolo thinking he's grown too strong will be brought up, and here's my counter to that:

Again, Piccolo references the group as a whole.

Chapter: 347 (DBZ 153), P3.2-3
Piccolo: "It seems that in the original history, we were supposed to be wiped out by you two androids...But it looks like the future has changed somehow...Was it that you weren't as strong as we thought?...Or have we grown too strong?..."

Piccolo questioning their validity also doesn't necessarily require them to be so strong. They absorb energy, so it's possible for them to reach the level of "too strong for Trunks" in the future by absorbing more energy. If the Z Fighters never trained as rigorously in the future, then it's possible that the Z Fighters were killed by Androids weaker than the ones that Trunks faces. So they can still grow too strong without surpassing Trunks from 3 years prior.

:mikey

I know this is a response to Paladin, but i beg to differ.

There are a few statements that are similiar to those you posted throughout the story. Here are two of them:

Jackie Chun: “Did you really…take down Taopaipai…?”

Despite Goku's feat of taking down Chappa earlier, Jackie Chun is still shocked that Goku had the strength to defeat Tao Pai Pai.

Freeza: “You seem far stronger than I thought. I’m a little surprised. To think that there was someone in this world above Captain Ginyu…But you’re no match for me.”

Despite fighting 3-4 guys stronger than Ginyu, Freeza is surprised that Goku has surpassed Ginyu.

Both statements, pretty much like the ones you posted, would imply this is the first time a foe from the past (Freeza/Tao/Ginyu) has been surpassed by someone (Cyborgs/Goku), but i think we can agree the statements i posted aren't accurate about that. It's just Toriyama's writting style: He tries to make it obvious that the former bad guy is now powerless, but does so in a awkward way that mistakenly implies it's the first time that happens. It's just that Piccolo, much like Chappa or Vegeta and co. on Namek, wasn't worth giving the spotlight.

It's not explicity stated that Trunks has powered up, but it's strongly implied. He went from weaker than Yardrat Goku to lumped with SSJ Vegeta.

Were the Z Fighters really planning to fight as a team though? He showed no reluctance when Goku asked him to step down when he was about to fight #19, and he asked Vegeta to not take a part on his fight with #20. He was very sure of his own power.

"We" includes himself too. If he weren't strong enough he wouldn't have included himself...

Except that's not what the statement implies at all. He's talking about #20's current level of power, not about how strong he could possibly become. It's not like he said "Was it that you weren’t as strong as we thought?...Or you haven't absorbed enough power yet?...”

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Well, it's been a while...

They're stronger than Freeza IMO. Trunks could one shot a full power Freeza (Strongly implied) but 19 was taking several hits from Sick Goku, who at worst is ~ Debut Trunks.

...

 

[GSM123]

Well, it's been a while...

They're stronger than Freeza IMO. Trunks could one shot a full power Freeza (Strongly implied) but 19 was taking several hits from Sick Goku, who at worst is ~ Debut Trunks.

...

I side with this man now, SHC:

I have him weaker than Freeza since I don't consider Piccolo stronger than Freeza anymore.

[mention]Six Trails[/mention]

 

[Tapion]

> Piccolo being weaker than Freeza

Stop being a faggot.

 

[GSM123]

> Piccolo being weaker than Freeza

Stop being a faggot.

Vegeta sensed Piccolo’s power against #20 and still considered impossible for him to surpass the Super Saiyan.

Spoiler

It wouldn’t be possible for Piccolo achieve such power without merging with Kami, the story never makes a point of portraying him with such power.

 

[Tapion]

Vegeta sensed Piccolo’s power against #20 and still considered impossible for him to surpass the Super Saiyan.

"But...the power I felt surpassed mine as a Super Saiyan!"

Vegeta: “They’re all just dicking around with me…! Easily surpassing the Super Saiyan, the greatest in the universe…!”

Context is clearly Vegeta bitching about Piccolo surpassing him specifically, bro. You're going full VoiceofReason right now, and that's very concerning.

 

[ahill1]

The SSJ Vegeta references ought to be the androids saga ones, as it was already made explicit by Trunks three years earlier that himself as a SSJ couldn't hope to defeat even one of those androids. The SSJ being surpassed was already a given... but now the trained and improved one being surpassed, specially Vegeta, the strongest one, warranted such reaction... and he for whatever reason mentioned the SSJ in a more broad way of saying, although we know it isn't.

 

[GSM123]

You're going full VoiceofReason right now, and that's very concerning.

I'm afraid that's already a thing 2

But don't worry, it's not like I'm gonna say you're emotionally weak and say you're missing the point of Japanese Culture

Anyways, "Easily dicking around with me" because they're surpassing the Super Saiyan, and Vegeta is one. If this statement were supposed to be exclusively about Vegeta he wouldn't have refered to the Super Saiyan in the singular, as if it were a single level of power.

The SSJ Vegeta references ought to be the androids saga ones, as it was already made explicit by Trunks three years earlier that himself as a SSJ couldn't hope to defeat even one of those androids. The SSJ being surpassed was already a given... but now the trained and improved one being surpassed, specially Vegeta, the strongest one, warranted such reaction... and he for whatever reason mentioned the SSJ in a more broad way of saying, although we know it isn't.

Not necessarily. In his complaint Trunks highlighted the fact he's fighting a two on one fight and praized Goku's abilities outside of power. He doesn't even directly comments on Goku's power when they met, yet he thinks Goku is enough to take on the Androids whether he trains or not.

I don't have a concrete view of how Trunks compares to the Future Androids in raw power (Though the fact Goku didn't bother entering the Rosat would imply SSJ > Future Androids), but the difference between Trunks being a greenhorn and Goku being a seasoned warrior who always finds his way out of any hard situation would downgrade the importance of raw power in this Arc. Vegeta even manages to hold his own against the far stronger Present #18 merely out of fighting skill, as #17 points out.

 

[ahill1]

Trunks then stated that it didn't matter even if there was only one of them. The "there are two of them" comes to me more as a "to make things even more hopeless". Unless Piccolo omitted such detail when exposing the to-come trouble for everyone, Vegeta should already know that the SSJ itself isn't unstoppable. And considering that in both of those instances Vegeta also references his power, it's easy to see he was more concerned with himself as a SSJ being surpassed. And "they're outdoing us" isn't referring to Piccolo alone either.