How much of a Zenkai did Goku get post Saiyan-Saga?

[ahill1]

Yeah, I have always interpreted the whole sequence as Goku gaining Zenkais from his training in the Spaceship. As for Vegeta's line, that was either an aspull from Toriyama (similar to the Shin Kikoho) as a way to not have Vegeta being the one to wound himself, which would make his power up way cheaper... or the difference lies on Goku doing it unintentionally whilst Vegeta would be 100% consciously wounding himself. Like EV said, it doesn't seem Goku was aware about the consequences of receiving that KMHMH head on. He even stated later that he has to be careful othewise he will end up killing himself.

As for the point of Goku realizing the mechanics of the Zenkai, well, it's stated "the characteristic of their strength increasing when they overcome death", so that's what the whole thing ought to be referring to, not to Goku realizing that sometimes they can get those power ups increases whereas sometimes not... in which case it'd be worded out more along the lines of "perhaps he realized the conditions to gain a Zenkai", or "realized that you can't always receive one", which is completely different.

As for the topic, I like to assign to Goku the same increase Vegeta got, so a 1.33x increase, which would place Goku's regular battle power at around 11,000. Goku could rise his power up to 33,000 with a Kaioken x3... I always wished to see a hypothetical what if scenario in which Vegeta went to Earth right after recovering, and in that scenario Goku would be already recovered.

It's worth noting that Vegeta was willing to go to the Earth, but decided to get his immortality first. If he were really willing to go to Earth despite knowing that Goku was rather injured as well and that he could also recover from that, doesn't that mean he was thinking Goku wouldn't get a Zenkai? Dunno.

 

[Victorious]

When Krillin was acting too shy to attack him.

Vegeta's other statement makes it sound like he can't damage himself at all.

"It won't work if I try to kill myself".

Has he ever tried?

He didn't say Goku can't get a zenkai. He's already talked to Goku about that
He's just saying when Goku comes back Goku won't be strong enough to beat Freeza.

 

[Victorious]

Yeah, I have always interpreted the whole sequence as Goku gaining Zenkais from his training in the Spaceship. As for Vegeta's line, that was either an aspull from Toriyama (similar to the Shin Kikoho) as a way to not have Vegeta being the one to wound himself, which would make his power up way cheaper... or the difference lies on Goku doing it unintentionally whilst Vegeta would be 100% consciously wounding himself. Like EV said, it doesn't seem Goku was aware about the consequences of receiving that KMHMH head on. He even stated later that he has to be careful othewise he will end up killing himself.

As for the point of Goku realizing the mechanics of the Zenkai, well, it's stated "the characteristic of their strength increasing when they overcome death", so that's what the whole thing ought to be referring to, not to Goku realizing that sometimes they can get those power ups increases whereas sometimes not... in which case it'd be worded out more along the lines of "perhaps he realized the conditions to gain a Zenkai", or "realized that you can't always receive one", which is completely different.

As for the topic, I like to assign to Goku the same increase Vegeta got, so a 1.33x increase, which would place Goku's regular battle power at around 11,000. Goku could rise his power up to 33,000 with a Kaioken x3... I always wished to see a hypothetical what if scenario in which Vegeta went to Earth right after recovering, and in that scenario Goku would be already recovered.

It's worth noting that Vegeta was willing to go to the Earth, but decided to get his immortality first. If he were really willing to go to Earth despite knowing that Goku was rather injured as well and that he could also recover from that, doesn't that mean he was thinking Goku wouldn't get a Zenkai? Dunno.

If Goku is just now realizing the simple brute fact of zenkais that would make him a pretty big idiot. Considering he would have just gotten a large one a few days ago. Not to mention Krillin knew of Goku's zenkaia throughout Dragon Ball. Though I guess Goku has been a clueless idiot before (chichi being on his nuts in the 23rd budokai rings a bell)

 

[ahill1]

If Goku is just now realizing the simple brute fact of zenkais that would make him a pretty big idiot. Considering he would have just gotten a large one a few days ago. Not to mention Krillin knew of Goku's zenkaia throughout Dragon Ball. Though I guess Goku has been a clueless idiot before (chichi being on his nuts in the 23rd budokai rings a bell)

As per Dragon Ball Super, Goku doesn't even know what kissing means despite having had two childs, so go figure

Btw, despite it making Goku look like an idiot, it's still precisely what's being told to us in Herms and VIZ language, in which Goku may be catching a link on the increase via the Zenkai just there, with "their strength increasing when they overcome death" being the exact words. Similarly, Gohan and Goku being surprised at Vegeta possessing the SSJ2 despite this latter stating a few chapters ago that he is above SSJ2 Gohan is also stupid, but that's still precisely what the artwork and the dialogue shows us, so there's still no ignoring that. Many things that are chosen to be laid out to us may seem stupid despite being the way things are.

Alternatively, you could say that Goku already knew about his ability to gain strength after a near death situation, but was just there linking it to a Saiyajin's trait, hence why he knew Vegeta had grown stronger after swallowing a Senzu bean post his battle against Recoome,

 

[Victorious]

Well in Herms it said the characteristic of their strength increasing when they overcome death.

Anyway, why does Vegeta tell Krillin to hurt him and says it wont work if he tries it himself?

 

[ahill1]

Well in Herms it said the characteristic of their strength increasing when they overcome death.

The characteristic is directly linked to their strength increasing when they overcome death. What characteristic? That they grow stronger when they overcome death. It's not at all related to the mechanics of their growth in strength, or to the condition of them gaining strength via a near death power up.

Chapter: 270 (DBZ 76), P8.3-4
Context: Narrator commenting on Goku’s increasing strength. 
Narrator: “Goku had continued this insane pattern of pushing his body and ki to the brink of death, then refreshing himself again by eating a senzu. The 7 senzu he received from Lord Karin have already fallen to only 3…However, though this training is outrageous, perhaps Goku has somehow realized the Saiyan characteristic of their strength increasing when they overcome death…”

Furthermore, the way such statement is worded out implies that Goku continued such training regimen because he has, perhaps, realized the Saiyajin's characteristics of having their strength increased when recovering from a near death situation. "However, though this training is outrageous, [perhaps] Goku has already realized it's an effective way of gaining strength" --> paraphrasing, but even though this method is outrageous, Goku still keeps abusing from it because he knows he can benefit from it... would he benefit from such training if the only thing he has realized was that he can't gain strength from it? The Senzu bean has fallen from 7 to 3, so there'd be no reason he would be keeping doing it if he didn't gain anything from it.

Anyway, why does Vegeta tell Krillin to hurt him and says it wont work if he tries it himself?

Like I said, maybe it was kind of an asspull from Toriyama so Vegeta's power up wouldn't be cheaper than it already was. Either that, or Vegeta was just flat oht wrong on that thing... what about Cell blowing himself up? Isn't that considered as self-inflicted? Yet he gained a colossal Zenkai. Unless you were to argue Cell evolved the Zenkais quality from the Saiyajins?

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Vic, Vegeta said Goku "won't get any stronger" because of his low-class status. Yes, Goku made it clear that he was aware of the Zenkai that Saiyans receive, but Vegeta is straight up saying he's not going to be any different from healing. The statement makes about as much sense as him being unable to harm himself.

We've seen a few guys harm themselves greatly. ahill's Cell example is a great one because Cell intended to kill himself there and ended up growing more powerful from a Zenkai. Ginyu can punch a huge hole in his chest and presumably do even greater damage than that if he wanted to. It's not like Vegeta tried to attack himself, so there's not much basis to the statement.

 

[Victorious]

Well Cell certainly did get a big zenkai. However I don't think his mechanics apply to the regular Saiyans. For one thing they don't get zenkais after SSJ but Cell whom is MSSJ to SSJ2 tier and has SSJ aura can. So clearly their limits don't apply to him. Another thing is Cell never intended to get a zenkaia or even live. He simply unconsciously regenerated. And he even said himself he got lucky, so there's a greater than 50% chance he would not survive his own self destruct. So I think even Cell can't harm himself intentionally. and get one consciously

 

[Fantastische Hure]

I think whilst Goku caught-on about the Zenkais, he still didn't try to abuse the advantage in any way. That'd be quite cheap for Goku, who's all about hard work. He saw that as a good extra, but I think he trained hard for a lot of his power and the Zenkais just ended adding-up for him.