How powerful was Future Goku SSJ (Before he got sick)?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Future Gohan SSJ (1 Arm) - Around SSJ Goku (before death) like he alluded to in his talk with Trunks

But Gohan said the opposite: That he had yet to catch up with his father. Wouldn’t it be better to interpret that scene as Gohan wanting to have Goku’s character and resolve?

 

[Spiral-Force]

But Gohan said the opposite: That he had yet to catch up with his father. Wouldn’t it be better to interpret that scene as Gohan wanting to have Goku’s character and resolve?

He said he made his gi in hope that he would be as strong as his father one day, then proceeded to say it's not just the clothes. Sounds like he achieved his goal.

 

[Hector]

Future Goku became ill 2 and a half years after finishing off Mecha Frieza and King Cold. Most likely, Goku spent those 2 and a half years training and getting stronger.

How powerful had Future Goku SSJ become? Will he be as strong as Goku SSJ (Semi-Sick) or as powerful as the Android Arc when healthy or something in between?

What do you think?

Manga wise, Goku got sick 6 months after he came back, so he's only a little stronger than his Yardrat self.

Anime wise, he's probably not far behind his Android Arc self.

 

[ahill1]

He said he made his gi in hope that he would be as strong as his father one day, then proceeded to say it's not just the clothes. Sounds like he achieved his goal.

Chapter: Trunks: the Story, P2.5
Context: Trunks commented on how Gohan’s gi made Bulma think of Goku.
Future Gohan: “I made it hoping it would make me as strong as dad was before he died… But I guess it’s not that easy."

Hmmm. I've always read this statement as meaning Gohan still hadn't caught up to Goku's strength, that using his gi was a way to, even though it logically doesn't work that way, make him as strong as his dad, in a way it'd bring fortune and a right path to his development, matching his dad's, but with the it's not that easy meaning he still had some steps to go to be as strong. Though, now seeing you point it out, I can also see it from the perspective of Gohan getting to that level of strength but realizing his father still had special attributes besides raw chi power that he lacks. Bulma saying to Trunks that Goku was strong, but that there was something else besides his strength that really gave them confidence would also fit into this --- that special confidence and positive outlook that encourages them.

I've a more traditional approach to the gaps in the future Trunks' arrival arc, but since I also see the other side that people view that part as a valid one too, I've another set of gaps... While I generally don't use those, I think they also have their validity, and don't look too bad when reading the scene with an open mind.


Namek arc

SSJ Goku : 150,000,000
100% Freeza : 120,000,000

Future Trunks' arrival

King Cold : 100,000,000
Mecha Freeza : 140,000,000

SSJ Future Trunks : 160,000,000
SSJ Goku : 180,000,000
SSJ future Gohan (1 arm) : 150,000,000

 

[Spiral-Force]

Chapter: Trunks: the Story, P2.5
Context: Trunks commented on how Gohan’s gi made Bulma think of Goku.
Future Gohan: “I made it hoping it would make me as strong as dad was before he died… But I guess it’s not that easy."

Hmmm. I've always read this statement as meaning Gohan still hadn't caught up to Goku's strength, that using his gi was a way to, even though it logically doesn't work that way, make him as strong as his dad, in a way it'd bring fortune and a right path to his development, matching his dad's, but with the it's not that easy meaning he still had some steps to go to be as strong. Though, now seeing you point it out, I can also see it from the perspective of Gohan getting to that level of strength but realizing his father still had special attributes besides raw chi power that he lacks. Bulma saying to Trunks that Goku was strong, but that there was something else besides his strength that really gave them confidence would also fit into this --- that special confidence and positive outlook that encourages them.

I've a more traditional approach to the gaps in the future Trunks' arrival arc, but since I also see the other side that people view that part as a valid one too, I've another set of gaps... While I generally don't use those, I think they also have their validity, and don't look too bad when reading the scene with an open mind.


Namek arc

SSJ Goku : 150,000,000
100% Freeza : 120,000,000

Future Trunks' arrival

King Cold : 100,000,000
Mecha Freeza : 140,000,000

SSJ Future Trunks : 160,000,000
SSJ Goku : 180,000,000
SSJ future Gohan (1 arm) : 150,000,000

It seemed that Gohan became the guy to outdo - like it was interchangeable between Goku and himself. For instance, when Trunks believed he had the strength to finally beat the artificial humans, Bulma expressed her scepticism by using Gohan as a measuring stick. Looking at it from the perspective of having a strong spirit, as you touched on, there was an animated scene in which Gohan wanted to have Goku's courage to make him strong. If he was lacking that, there ought to be at least 1 thing he brings to the table to inspire slight hope - I think that being weaker -- or not even around the level of -- a past Z Fighter would close the door on even a glimpse of hope.

 

[ahill1]

It seemed that Gohan became the guy to outdo - like it was interchangeable between Goku and himself. For instance, when Trunks believed he had the strength to finally beat the artificial humans, Bulma expressed her scepticism by using Gohan as a measuring stick. Looking at it from the perspective of having a strong spirit, as you touched on, there was an animated scene in which Gohan wanted to have Goku's courage to make him strong. If he was lacking that, there ought to be at least 1 thing he brings to the table to inspire slight hope - I think that being weaker -- or not even around the level of -- a past Z Fighter would close the door on even a glimpse of hope.

Yeah, I agree, pretty much. I like having [post Yardrat] Goku slightly stronger than future Trunks since Trunks stated, upon testing Goku by attacking him with his sword, albeit while holding back, that Goku was even better than the rumors. He thought he was as amazing as the rumors firstly, but then said he was even better than that. I think that future Trunks would go there expecting Goku to be around Gohan or around his level of strength, considering future Gohan's statement --- so around 160,000,000 more or less... Then, upon feeling a ~180,000,000 kind of power, he realized Goku was even better than the rumors, which to me gives a wiggle room for some improvement for Goku between those almost 2 years since the Namek arc --- although that improvement being a "somewhat stronger", not anything too noticeable --- 1.2x his previous power.

Mecha Freeza can have grown strong enough that he'd think he could perhaps go at Goku alone, but the fact he thinks fighting with his father will guarantee the victory and the whole "SSJ tier" thing separating the SSJs as their own power, makes it sensible to me that Freeza would still be slightly weaker than [Namek] SSJ Goku.

Future Trunks, while being compared to Goku by Gohan, who stated they have the same chi, might be slightly stronger than Namek Goku, now making his gap over Mecha Freeza noticeable --- with Freeza rivaling Namek Goku from the losing side and Trunks rivaling that Goku from the superior side, placing a noticeable gap between them that would guarantee Trunks' victory even if Freeza fought with everything he had... With Goku being slightly --- to somewhat --- above that Trunks. That makes sense to me, still maintain the SSJ more at its own thing as Freeza is still weaker than Namek SSJ Goku, but also makes the gap between the strongest SSJ before the 3 years (post Yardrat Goku) and Mecha Freeza a noticeable one, similar to the advantage Goku had over Freeza in their battle on Namek.

Since I think Future Gohan got up to 50% of future #17, based on his confidence on bringing at least one of them down before knowing 17 hadn't even used 50%, full power #17 would be around 300,000,000 more or less... With the androids saga SSJs being slightly below that --- Vegeta capping at around 270,000,000 (about as strong as future #18). That's more or less how I'd work with the gaps proceeding.

 

[Spiral-Force]

Yeah, I agree, pretty much. I like having [post Yardrat] Goku slightly stronger than future Trunks since Trunks stated, upon testing Goku by attacking him with his sword, albeit while holding back, that Goku was even better than the rumors. He thought he was as amazing as the rumors firstly, but then said he was even better than that. I think that future Trunks would go there expecting Goku to be around Gohan or around his level of strength, considering future Gohan's statement --- so around 160,000,000 more or less... Then, upon feeling a ~180,000,000 kind of power, he realized Goku was even better than the rumors, which to me gives a wiggle room for some improvement for Goku between those almost 2 years since the Namek arc --- although that improvement being a "somewhat stronger", not anything too noticeable --- 1.2x his previous power.

Mecha Freeza can have grown strong enough that he'd think he could perhaps go at Goku alone, but the fact he thinks fighting with his father will guarantee the victory and the whole "SSJ tier" thing separating the SSJs as their own power, makes it sensible to me that Freeza would still be slightly weaker than [Namek] SSJ Goku.

Future Trunks, while being compared to Goku by Gohan, who stated they have the same chi, might be slightly stronger than Namek Goku, now making his gap over Mecha Freeza noticeable --- with Freeza rivaling Namek Goku from the losing side and Trunks rivaling that Goku from the superior side, placing a noticeable gap between them that would guarantee Trunks' victory even if Freeza fought with everything he had... With Goku being slightly --- to somewhat --- above that Trunks. That makes sense to me, still maintain the SSJ more at its own thing as Freeza is still weaker than Namek SSJ Goku, but also makes the gap between the strongest SSJ before the 3 years (post Yardrat Goku) and Mecha Freeza a noticeable one, similar to the advantage Goku had over Freeza in their battle on Namek.

Since I think Future Gohan got up to 50% of future #17, based on his confidence on bringing at least one of them down before knowing 17 hadn't even used 50%, full power #17 would be around 300,000,000 more or less... With the androids saga SSJs being slightly below that --- Vegeta capping at around 270,000,000 (about as strong as future #18). That's more or less how I'd work with the gaps proceeding.

Goku's courage is what can be taken away from that test. Deliberately choosing to do nothing while someone comes swinging a sword at you because you have confidence in your ability to determine that they will stop isn't something you see often, even for a brave fighter. Also a very unique display of skill with the way he was defending those strikes when Trunks decided to follow through the second time. Like you said, they did not fight at their best, so I do not agree that this bumps Goku up in the powerscaling.

As you pointed out, Trunks and Goku appeared to be indistinguishable from each other as far as their ki was concerned. The differentiation was about their approach to fighting Frieza. Goku was considered merciful in retrospect while Trunks was absolutely willing to wipe him out.

I do not think Gohan is necessarily superior to less-than-half Future 17. 17 was surprised that Gohan was still alive, so that fight sounds like it was very rough for him despite the cap.

 

[ahill1]

Goku's courage is what can be taken away from that test. Deliberately choosing to do nothing while someone comes swinging a sword at you because you have confidence in your ability to determine that they will stop isn't something you see often, even for a brave fighter. Also a very unique display of skill with the way he was defending those strikes when Trunks decided to follow through the second time. Like you said, they did not fight at their best, so I do not agree that this bumps Goku up in the powerscaling.

As you pointed out, Trunks and Goku appeared to be indistinguishable from each other as far as their ki was concerned. The differentiation was about their approach to fighting Frieza. Goku was considered merciful in retrospect while Trunks was absolutely willing to wipe him out.

I do not think Gohan is necessarily superior to less-than-half Future 17. 17 was surprised that Gohan was still alive, so that fight sounds like it was very rough for him despite the cap.

Yes, though I think it displayed both Goku's courage and Goku's power as well. Goku's approach of letting Trunks attack knowing he'd stop caught Trunks off guard and likely affected his judgement on Goku. Though Trunks was also surprised by the fact Goku could stop all those slashes, emphasizing that such sword cut Freeza down. It's true that Trunks was holding back, but I think that even accounting for the fact he was holding back, a display of strength by parrying/blocking all the attacks with a finger filled with chi is also a strength display that caught Trunks off guard. Even though Trunks didn't go all out, I'd say that strength and pressure used to attack Goku likely would have been enough to kill Freeza as Trunks pointed out that such sword cut Freeza down easily --- with Goku pointing out that Trunks wasn't going all out imo not necessarily challenging the notion that the sword and Trunks' strength used then could cut Freeza down, just that Trunks was more capable than that still, speaking more on Trunks' overall abilities rather than the feat of killing Freeza with that. In my opinion, it'd be off place to point that out if he weren't using strength capable of managing such a feat, that he brought up to make a big deal of Goku defending from such attacks --- defending easily from attacks that could cut down Freeza!



I'd say Goku's strength when defending from the sword was also tied to Trunks saying Goku was even greater than the stories. I think it'd be a mix of Goku sensing no malice and therefore not defending himself firstly, showing a unique and knowledgeable approach... And later on, displaying his strength by stopping all the attacks with his finger filled with chi.

IMO, Trunks expected Goku to be around his level, more or less... And Goku turned out to be even stronger than that, though by a not considerable margin --- by a slight to noticeable amount --- more or less the improvement Goku had in the time he was on Yardrat. Goku focused most of his time there mastering the Shunkan Idou, but he also ought to have dedicated some time to hone his strength, I would imagine, as it doesn't seem that mastering the teleportation was all he did there. He said that at the start, transforming at will was very difficult, but that with time it became easy, so we know that at least some time was spent in getting used to SSJ and making that transformation easily controllable. I think this few moments off from training teleportation might explain some improvement, albeit not a big or drastic one, just one comparable to, say, Freeza's when enhancing his body through cybernetics... Then still maintaining his superiority the same... While if he stayed at 150,000,000 exactly, it may have been a drawn out battle vs Mecha Freeza, one in which he would win after a decent struggle, but would likely lose if Freeza and his father attacked him together.

Yes, I agree they had different mindsets when fighting Freeza. Though, I would say that Goku's merciful nature came more at moments he could kill Freeza without giving Freeza the opportunity to use full power. He seemed to be intended on killing Freeza when he caught on Freeza needing some time to power up to 100%, to which Freeza desperately Kiai'd him using 70%... And then he was charging at Freeza once he was powering up to 100%... But changed his approach midway --- stating that he wants to beat Freeza at his best, so Freeza wouldn't have regrets as a warrior. I think this may be when his nature of being more lenient and merciful came at play... while he could have quickly dispatched of Freeza there without giving him the time. When Freeza was at 100% and they battled, then I see Goku battling Freeza with all he had. He had the upper-hand clearly and it seems Freeza's best moment was when using his shield attack and getting Goku off guard by getting out of his KMHMH trajectory and hitting Goku with all he had, which took Goku some time to come back, but still had little effect. Besides that, he could get some hits on, but Goku's advantage was clear --- not saying you disagree with this, I'm just pointing it out for clarifying how I see the battle. So to me, when they were both at 100%, it was a battle portrayed in a way that Freeza could get something done, but at the end of the day, Goku was just ahead of him and could showcase his superiority in a noticeable and apparent fashion --- he was simply noticeably ahead Freeza.

I think Trunks may have found himself in similar problems if he allowed Freeza to power up to 100%, but at the end of the day, despite that not being a one shot KO like it was, he'd outdo Freeza in a dominant fashion, though Freeza would put up a resistance, but one from a losing side that would be made apparent... One in which he could make Trunks put in the fire a little and battle him, but one in which Trunks' advantage would become apparent without that terrible tough time... Which I think that, on top of the power advantage, would be made still more one sided due to Trunks' sword... Which while still not the main source of his powers, was an extension of his strength, potentially stretching the gap a little more still.

I think that statement from 17 would just imply that his less than half power was above Gohan from 1 year prior. After 1 year, it seems Gohan built strength enough to at least defeat that level future 17 used to mess him up...



It seems Gohan's training left him in a position to outdo the level 17 used vs him last time, as in the following panel, 17 stated "our turn? Heheh. Sorry to disappoint you, but I didn't even use half my power last time...." ... To which Gohan was like !! What?? --- and then 17 proceeded to attack him. Before that, Gohan knocked Trunks out saying that if he died there too, there would be no one left to protect the Earth... So yeah, I agree that it seems Gohan was going there prepared to die. I think this duality between him going there prepared to die and saying he'd defeat 17 might be he being prepared to a possible scenario that may very well happen --- him dying --- and then KO'ing Trunks so that in case this very possible scenario happens, their hopes aren't all lost. Like when a fighter knows that they have the ability to win a scheduled fight against their opponent, but also knows that despite knowing they have what it takes, they can also very well be defeated. Or, perhaps, the fact Gohan knows he was facing both androids... So even though he had the power to defeat 17 based on what he had displayed last time, knowing that there is 18 too, and that with 17 alone it already wouldn't be an easy battle, turn the full result as a hopeless battle to him as for surviving. One in which he can take them individually, but at the end of the day, their team up is too much for him --- which may happen even before he can finish 17 if 18 sees this would happen.

 

[Spiral-Force]

Yes, though I think it displayed both Goku's courage and Goku's power as well. Goku's approach of letting Trunks attack knowing he'd stop caught Trunks off guard and likely affected his judgement on Goku. Though Trunks was also surprised by the fact Goku could stop all those slashes, emphasizing that such sword cut Freeza down. It's true that Trunks was holding back, but I think that even accounting for the fact he was holding back, a display of strength by parrying/blocking all the attacks with a finger filled with chi is also a strength display that caught Trunks off guard. Even though Trunks didn't go all out, I'd say that strength and pressure used to attack Goku likely would have been enough to kill Freeza as Trunks pointed out that such sword cut Freeza down easily --- with Goku pointing out that Trunks wasn't going all out imo not necessarily challenging the notion that the sword and Trunks' strength used then could cut Freeza down, just that Trunks was more capable than that still, speaking more on Trunks' overall abilities rather than the feat of killing Freeza with that. In my opinion, it'd be off place to point that out if he weren't using strength capable of managing such a feat, that he brought up to make a big deal of Goku defending from such attacks --- defending easily from attacks that could cut down Freeza!

View attachment 3788

I'd say Goku's strength when defending from the sword was also tied to Trunks saying Goku was even greater than the stories. I think it'd be a mix of Goku sensing no malice and therefore not defending himself firstly, showing a unique and knowledgeable approach... And later on, displaying his strength by stopping all the attacks with his finger filled with chi.

IMO, Trunks expected Goku to be around his level, more or less... And Goku turned out to be even stronger than that, though by a not considerable margin --- by a slight to noticeable amount --- more or less the improvement Goku had in the time he was on Yardrat. Goku focused most of his time there mastering the Shunkan Idou, but he also ought to have dedicated some time to hone his strength, I would imagine, as it doesn't seem that mastering the teleportation was all he did there. He said that at the start, transforming at will was very difficult, but that with time it became easy, so we know that at least some time was spent in getting used to SSJ and making that transformation easily controllable. I think this few moments off from training teleportation might explain some improvement, albeit not a big or drastic one, just one comparable to, say, Freeza's when enhancing his body through cybernetics... Then still maintaining his superiority the same... While if he stayed at 150,000,000 exactly, it may have been a drawn out battle vs Mecha Freeza, one in which he would win after a decent struggle, but would likely lose if Freeza and his father attacked him together.

Yes, I agree they had different mindsets when fighting Freeza. Though, I would say that Goku's merciful nature came more at moments he could kill Freeza without giving Freeza the opportunity to use full power. He seemed to be intended on killing Freeza when he caught on Freeza needing some time to power up to 100%, to which Freeza desperately Kiai'd him using 70%... And then he was charging at Freeza once he was powering up to 100%... But changed his approach midway --- stating that he wants to beat Freeza at his best, so Freeza wouldn't have regrets as a warrior. I think this may be when his nature of being more lenient and merciful came at play... while he could have quickly dispatched of Freeza there without giving him the time. When Freeza was at 100% and they battled, then I see Goku battling Freeza with all he had. He had the upper-hand clearly and it seems Freeza's best moment was when using his shield attack and getting Goku off guard by getting out of his KMHMH trajectory and hitting Goku with all he had, which took Goku some time to come back, but still had little effect. Besides that, he could get some hits on, but Goku's advantage was clear --- not saying you disagree with this, I'm just pointing it out for clarifying how I see the battle. So to me, when they were both at 100%, it was a battle portrayed in a way that Freeza could get something done, but at the end of the day, Goku was just ahead of him and could showcase his superiority in a noticeable and apparent fashion --- he was simply noticeably ahead Freeza.

I think Trunks may have found himself in similar problems if he allowed Freeza to power up to 100%, but at the end of the day, despite that not being a one shot KO like it was, he'd outdo Freeza in a dominant fashion, though Freeza would put up a resistance, but one from a losing side that would be made apparent... One in which he could make Trunks put in the fire a little and battle him, but one in which Trunks' advantage would become apparent without that terrible tough time... Which I think that, on top of the power advantage, would be made still more one sided due to Trunks' sword... Which while still not the main source of his powers, was an extension of his strength, potentially stretching the gap a little more still.

I think that statement from 17 would just imply that his less than half power was above Gohan from 1 year prior. After 1 year, it seems Gohan built strength enough to at least defeat that level future 17 used to mess him up...

View attachment 3789

It seems Gohan's training left him in a position to outdo the level 17 used vs him last time, as in the following panel, 17 stated "our turn? Heheh. Sorry to disappoint you, but I didn't even use half my power last time...." ... To which Gohan was like !! What?? --- and then 17 proceeded to attack him. Before that, Gohan knocked Trunks out saying that if he died there too, there would be no one left to protect the Earth... So yeah, I agree that it seems Gohan was going there prepared to die. I think this duality between him going there prepared to die and saying he'd defeat 17 might be he being prepared to a possible scenario that may very well happen --- him dying --- and then KO'ing Trunks so that in case this very possible scenario happens, their hopes aren't all lost. Like when a fighter knows that they have the ability to win a scheduled fight against their opponent, but also knows that despite knowing they have what it takes, they can also very well be defeated. Or, perhaps, the fact Gohan knows he was facing both androids... So even though he had the power to defeat 17 based on what he had displayed last time, knowing that there is 18 too, and that with 17 alone it already wouldn't be an easy battle, turn the full result as a hopeless battle to him as for surviving. One in which he can take them individually, but at the end of the day, their team up is too much for him --- which may happen even before he can finish 17 if 18 sees this would happen.

It looks like Trunks just wanted to brag a bit to Goku. Trunks showed instances of that demeanor against Frieza. Instead of feeding into that, Goku decided to put it bluntly that Trunks was holding back this time. I would not funnel that sword defense into any meaningful powerscaling because when fighters go all out, it's very brutal and they use all of their resources. We've never seen Goku be that sophisticated in a scenario where he's fighting with no restraint, so I don't think that exchange carried the intention that you're leaning to.

If Goku made notable strength gains on Yardrat, that would be more exciting to hear about than him complaining about how weak the people on that planet were. Given who he was amongst, it's not surprising that he had nothing new to share as far as raw power goes.

During the SSJ Goku/Frieza fight, Goku was conflicted because there was (1) the raging Super Saiyan in him, which King Kai considered as separate from the Goku we are used to, and (2) residual elements of Goku's personality. That's why there's moments like "Die Frieza!", then him later showing concern about Frieza against those discs that he spawned. Such a contrast from his post-Yardrat self; looks like he worked dilligently on that, and it paid off.

Unfortunately for Frieza, his arrogance and playfulness combined together creates problems for himself. Realistically, the Z Fighters would've been space dust on Namek if his focus was to simply eliminate them then leave. This problematic mindset remained after he was surpassed. The way he behaves makes the opposing, stronger fighter look even better.

Future 17 and Gohan's interaction suggests that the fight was more mano a mano. If Gohan thought he was superior to them individually (which I do not think he did), why not lean into that in the storyline? We never got insight into any special game plan. The goal was to -- hopefully -- pull off the upset victory as the underdog. A heavy lingering feeling of doubt still remained within him, which is why Trunks was left behind. Additionally: at that stage, future Earth was even more scarce than present Earth of training facilities/opportunities, restricting his preparation for the rematch.

 

[ahill1]

It looks like Trunks just wanted to brag a bit to Goku. Trunks showed instances of that demeanor against Frieza. Instead of feeding into that, Goku decided to put it bluntly that Trunks was holding back this time. I would not funnel that sword defense into any meaningful powerscaling because when fighters go all out, it's very brutal and they use all of their resources. We've never seen Goku be that sophisticated in a scenario where he's fighting with no restraint, so I don't think that exchange carried the intention that you're leaning to.

If Goku made notable strength gains on Yardrat, that would be more exciting to hear about than him complaining about how weak the people on that planet were. Given who he was amongst, it's not surprising that he had nothing new to share as far as raw power goes.

During the SSJ Goku/Frieza fight, Goku was conflicted because there was (1) the raging Super Saiyan in him, which King Kai considered as separate from the Goku we are used to, and (2) residual elements of Goku's personality. That's why there's moments like "Die Frieza!", then him later showing concern about Frieza against those discs that he spawned. Such a contrast from his post-Yardrat self; looks like he worked dilligently on that, and it paid off.

Unfortunately for Frieza, his arrogance and playfulness combined together creates problems for himself. Realistically, the Z Fighters would've been space dust on Namek if his focus was to simply eliminate them then leave. This problematic mindset remained after he was surpassed. The way he behaves makes the opposing, stronger fighter look even better.

Future 17 and Gohan's interaction suggests that the fight was more mano a mano. If Gohan thought he was superior to them individually (which I do not think he did), why not lean into that in the storyline? We never got insight into any special game plan. The goal was to -- hopefully -- pull off the upset victory as the underdog. A heavy lingering feeling of doubt still remained within him, which is why Trunks was left behind. Additionally: at that stage, future Earth was even more scarce than present Earth of training facilities/opportunities, restricting his preparation for the rematch.

Well, that's fair, though I get the impression it wasn't much of a bragging on Trunks' part. I think Trunks may have thought about the possibility of potentially injuring Goku if he attacked with all he had got with his sword if he expected Goku to be = him. So holding back a little to assess the ease to which Goku fended those strikes would make sense... And since Goku's defense could have potentially exceeded Trunks' estimations, it makes sense that, even though it was more like a testing the waters kind of thing, that the conclusion Goku was even better would be reached. Goku saying Trunks was holding back makes sense in character for Goku, more like Goku saying his feats wouldn't represent the reality of it if Trunks went all out. I don't think Goku would be challenging Trunks' perception that Goku was even better than the rumors by that, I rather think it's a way for him to also give Trunks credit --- that Trunks is capable of giving him more pressure is he feels like it --- rather than challenging the perspective that Trunks found Goku even more surprising than he expected.

Well, that quote from Goku was directed to his new technique, to which he earlier explained why he could get there quicker without the time discrepancy affecting that. While I think he got a power up, it makes sense for the Shunkan Ido to stand out more, specially in the context of Trunks later complaining he changed the events for no reason, rather than focusing on a 1.2x increase... That while considerable, it's still not a big increase or something to brag about in almost 2 years, although granted that training to increase his powers there wasn't the focus of his time spent there. The weak categorization of the Yardrat people would also make sense imo with the contrast he raised about them lacking power but knowing a lot of techniques.

I'd say he had the full mentality of killing Freeza, as you mentioned in that KMHMH scene. He didn't hold back in that regard until when he noticed that killing Freeza would be unworthy when Freeza's power started dropping. That's when the residual Goku came to manifest himself imo, while throughout the fight he seemed serious and intent on finishing Freeza... Until he saw that killing him wouldn't be needed considering Freeza was humiliated enough already and would live with being surpassed by someone that's a Saiyan. Seems like a moment in which Goku has the battle won, like with Nappa and Vegeta, but seems to see no need to go beyond that when it's decided and the opponent can no longer pose a threat. A bit different with Vegeta as he still found Vegeta a worthy challenge, but it seems that he operates sometimes under the mentality that when the opponent is already fighting a totally hopeless battle, he sees no need to press further... Though I don't think it means he didn't display killing intentions throughout the fight, it speaks more about the time he could already easily kill his opponent without putting in the effort for it and thus seeing not a need to give the final blow in those circumstances, anymore. I also think Freeza's arrogance ties into what Goku understands, the need to prove himself against the opponent, since when Goku was waiting for Freeza to go 100%, he spoke to Freeza about Freeza feeling this way too --- wishing to defeat Goku in battle, a trait that Goku shares. I think it wouldn't take away from them doing their best when both are 100% (Freeza would do it ofc, but Goku would do his best too imo)... More like the mentality of pride to prove themselves and beat the other one at their best, and that meaning going all out when everything is fair --- both are at 100%.

Well, Gohan still needed to fight both androids... So even if Gohan is above the level shown by #17 individually, a team battle could be well beyond his abilities to deal with. Which is why I think his lingering fear of dying can tag along with his superiority over 17's ~40% power... He says he has trained during the 1 year and that it's his turn to lose... Which can be true as far as his abilities to handle that power individually goes, but not in the full scope when 18 is there too. I think the fact that 17 answers that promptly with the fact he hadn't even been using half of his powers, with Gohan's intense shock following that, also speaks to what could have at least be a battle he'd die but hoped to take at least 17 with him... With the new revelation turning it to be a totally hopeless endeavor even against 17 alone... Completely unable to do something that may help a little in the future with the new revelation that came up.

 

[Spiral-Force]

Well, that's fair, though I get the impression it wasn't much of a bragging on Trunks' part. I think Trunks may have thought about the possibility of potentially injuring Goku if he attacked with all he had got with his sword if he expected Goku to be = him. So holding back a little to assess the ease to which Goku fended those strikes would make sense... And since Goku's defense could have potentially exceeded Trunks' estimations, it makes sense that, even though it was more like a testing the waters kind of thing, that the conclusion Goku was even better would be reached. Goku saying Trunks was holding back makes sense in character for Goku, more like Goku saying his feats wouldn't represent the reality of it if Trunks went all out. I don't think Goku would be challenging Trunks' perception that Goku was even better than the rumors by that, I rather think it's a way for him to also give Trunks credit --- that Trunks is capable of giving him more pressure is he feels like it --- rather than challenging the perspective that Trunks found Goku even more surprising than he expected.

Well, that quote from Goku was directed to his new technique, to which he earlier explained why he could get there quicker without the time discrepancy affecting that. While I think he got a power up, it makes sense for the Shunkan Ido to stand out more, specially in the context of Trunks later complaining he changed the events for no reason, rather than focusing on a 1.2x increase... That while considerable, it's still not a big increase or something to brag about in almost 2 years, although granted that training to increase his powers there wasn't the focus of his time spent there. The weak categorization of the Yardrat people would also make sense imo with the contrast he raised about them lacking power but knowing a lot of techniques.

I'd say he had the full mentality of killing Freeza, as you mentioned in that KMHMH scene. He didn't hold back in that regard until when he noticed that killing Freeza would be unworthy when Freeza's power started dropping. That's when the residual Goku came to manifest himself imo, while throughout the fight he seemed serious and intent on finishing Freeza... Until he saw that killing him wouldn't be needed considering Freeza was humiliated enough already and would live with being surpassed by someone that's a Saiyan. Seems like a moment in which Goku has the battle won, like with Nappa and Vegeta, but seems to see no need to go beyond that when it's decided and the opponent can no longer pose a threat. A bit different with Vegeta as he still found Vegeta a worthy challenge, but it seems that he operates sometimes under the mentality that when the opponent is already fighting a totally hopeless battle, he sees no need to press further... Though I don't think it means he didn't display killing intentions throughout the fight, it speaks more about the time he could already easily kill his opponent without putting in the effort for it and thus seeing not a need to give the final blow in those circumstances, anymore. I also think Freeza's arrogance ties into what Goku understands, the need to prove himself against the opponent, since when Goku was waiting for Freeza to go 100%, he spoke to Freeza about Freeza feeling this way too --- wishing to defeat Goku in battle, a trait that Goku shares. I think it wouldn't take away from them doing their best when both are 100% (Freeza would do it ofc, but Goku would do his best too imo)... More like the mentality of pride to prove themselves and beat the other one at their best, and that meaning going all out when everything is fair --- both are at 100%.

Well, Gohan still needed to fight both androids... So even if Gohan is above the level shown by #17 individually, a team battle could be well beyond his abilities to deal with. Which is why I think his lingering fear of dying can tag along with his superiority over 17's ~40% power... He says he has trained during the 1 year and that it's his turn to lose... Which can be true as far as his abilities to handle that power individually goes, but not in the full scope when 18 is there too. I think the fact that 17 answers that promptly with the fact he hadn't even been using half of his powers, with Gohan's intense shock following that, also speaks to what could have at least be a battle he'd die but hoped to take at least 17 with him... With the new revelation turning it to be a totally hopeless endeavor even against 17 alone... Completely unable to do something that may help a little in the future with the new revelation that came up.

Trunks did not say how strong he thought Goku was, nor was there any specificity in reference to the stories. I think I've said enough as to why I disagree on a micro-level. Looking at it from a macro-level (i.e. holding back) is the focal point of that part of the segment we were talking about, and can be verified from the storyline. So if there isn't a fundamental disagreement in that aspect, then I'm cool.

Goku indeed brought up teleportation in relation to how he was questioned, but that can smoothly segway into discussing other attributes he has gained.

Goku wanted to put Frieza down because of the pain, suffering and death he caused to so many people, with Krillin's being the most piercing to Goku's heart. So killing Frieza would carry purpose even after his power dropped. Goku expressed regret over not finishing him.

They indeed both had the feeling of wanting to perform at their best - but Goku's best came about by Frieza dragging the fight out, and that coming back to bite him. SSJ Goku wanting a 100% fight does not carry the same consequence since he is the stronger and better fighter.

I do not think Gohan was operating under precise logic. He had no clue how strong the artificial humans were, yet declared that they will lose, shortly before having his mindblown. I think it's moreso Gohan just trying to put up a brave face while knowing that the odds aren't looking good. I think it'd be too much of a task for him to surpass a level in which he was treated as a plaything yet was left in critical condition.

 

[ahill1]

Trunks did not say how strong he thought Goku was, nor was there any specificity in reference to the stories. I think I've said enough as to why I disagree on a micro-level. Looking at it from a macro-level (i.e. holding back) is the focal point of that part of the segment we were talking about, and can be verified from the storyline. So if there isn't a fundamental disagreement in that aspect, then I'm cool.

Goku indeed brought up teleportation in relation to how he was questioned, but that can smoothly segway into discussing other attributes he has gained.

Goku wanted to put Frieza down because of the pain, suffering and death he caused to so many people, with Krillin's being the most piercing to Goku's heart. So killing Frieza would carry purpose even after his power dropped. Goku expressed regret over not finishing him.

They indeed both had the feeling of wanting to perform at their best - but Goku's best came about by Frieza dragging the fight out, and that coming back to bite him. SSJ Goku wanting a 100% fight does not carry the same consequence since he is the stronger and better fighter.

I do not think Gohan was operating under precise logic. He had no clue how strong the artificial humans were, yet declared that they will lose, shortly before having his mindblown. I think it's moreso Gohan just trying to put up a brave face while knowing that the odds aren't looking good. I think it'd be too much of a task for him to surpass a level in which he was treated as a plaything yet was left in critical condition.

Sure, but the fact Gohan stated that he made the clothes thinking on that making him just as strong as Goku --- but that it isn't easy like that --- would give Trunks an idea of a minimum threshold for Goku, I'd say. As in, at least about as strong as that Gohan, if not more so. I think he could take Gohan's statement in 2 ways --- 1) Gohan wanted an attribute to also, on a courage inquiry level, to be as strong as Goku, but it isn't easy like that, i.e, he still wasn't as strong as Goku... 2) he got up to Goku's level, but it isn't simply being as strong as Goku, as his father carries more than strength in him. Whichever way Trunks interpreted that, I think he wouldn't expect he himself to be stronger than Goku considering Bulma stated Trunks wasn't much different from Gohan... I think before leaving to the past, Trunks asked Bulma if Goku was really that strong, and she replied with a yes, but that there's something else besides just strength that made them have a warming confidence. So I think he was expecting both attributes from Goku, both from a power standpoint and one that stood out in regards to Goku's approach to things. I agree with Trunks holding back in that exchange though, he was just testing Goku in a somewhat superficial way, to have a little bit of a feeling on his power. It wasn't a representative of how it'd unfold if Trunks were serious. I just think that in spite of that, he can still get his expectations outdone by Goku's strength level. But yeah, my opinion.

True, but considering Trunks didn't know how strong [Namek arc] SSJ Goku was, I don't think it'd make much sense for him to bring up a power increase from when he was on Yardrat. It's not like Trunks would have that much of a basis on how much that meant when he was meeting and knowing Goku there.

Yes, he was in a full mentality of defeating Freeza. He didn't want to be teleported to Earth, saying to Kaio he would hold a grudge over him for the rest of his life if he didn't let him settle that... And also, allowing time for Freeza to power up... Kaio-sama even said that was no longer Goku, as we have pointed out before, but the SSJ warrior. I think he had the mentality to do his best to defeat Freeza when both were at 100% and if that meant killing Freeza right then and there, so be it... It's just when Freeza's power started dropping that his attitude seemed to change. He seemed to think that Freeza's humiliation, that the showcase of his blatant superiority over Freeza was already something as painful as death for Freeza --- having to live in with the fact he was outdone, defeated, by a race he always somewhat feared and despised. I think that may have been a soft moment from him when he mentions that to Trunks, as well as allowing Freeza to power up to 100% without just finishing it earlier with no regards to showing Freeza he was the best no matter how... Not necessarily in regards to him not going for the kill when both were 100%, before Freeza's power started dropping, from my PoV.

Sure, but he wanted to prove that he was better and stronger to Freeza when Freeza was at 100% imo. I think if he defeated Freeza before this latter was at his best, Freeza could still have some psychological excuse to atune for his hurt feelings --- "well, I wasn't at my best". From Goku's standpoint, of wishing to crush Freeza's soul, I think it'd make sense to want to carve that into Freeza when Freeza was operating at his best so Freeza would have no such excuse... dunno where, maybe in hell lol

I think it was partially a bravado from Gohan but one that carried a certain truth to it, as 17's following answer wasn't to dismiss Gohan as delusional based on him thinking that, but to lay out how he didn't even use half of his power, which had Gohan totally petrified. I think if that were a simple total false confidence, one in which he didn't even surpass the level 17 used against him before, the story would have better challenged that claim rather than having 17 lay out the cold hammer as a way to completely dismantle whatever hope Gohan had then. I agree that there weren't many methods for Gohan to grow in strength there as he and Trunks were mostly by themselves as powerful warriors, but it's not like he couldn't have considerable improvements either, I would say. They'd be limited gains in comparison to present Gohan training in the RoSaT... But future Trunks, for example... He went from having a rough sparring, one in which he was getting more tired, against base Gohan while he was a SSJ to slightly surpassing that same SSJ Gohan 3 years later... So they still had room to improve even with limited training resources there IMO. It seems that not having Gohan there impacted Trunks' growth, as Gohan initially stated, during their sparring, that Trunks would catch up to him in a few months, but upon Gohan's death, it took 3 years for him to slightly surpass Gohan. But even still, that's a big power jump... And depending on the level Gohan was at before losing his arm, I don't think it's far fetched for him to get a decent power jump in 1 year. I think that even though he was way above future Trunks, having a challenging sparring match, even if he just uses his base state vs Trunks using SSJ, that's still a way to push himself.

Future SSJ Gohan (2 arms) : 110,000,000
Android #17 (less than half power) : 140,000,000
Future SSJ Gohan (1 year later) : 150,000,000

Something like that could be feasible imo.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

@Spiral-Force why do you Why do you think Gohan is weaker than 17's suppressed level if you said Gohan must be as strong as Goku to have any glimpse of hope? Shouldn't he be stronger than 17 to have any hope too?

@ahill1 I like your numbers,I think we ended up taking the idea of gaps too seriously. I'd still push everyone up a bit though.

Mecha Freeza: 150,000,000

SSJ Future Gohan (1 arm): 165,000,000
SSJ Future Trunks: 180,000,000
SSJ Goku: 200,000,000

 

[ahill1]

Something like this could easily work for me too. Some alternative numbers, for me, could be:

Freeza (100%) : 135,000,000
[Namek] SSJ Goku : 150,000,000

---

Mecha Freeza : 154,000,000
SSJ future Trunks : 175,000,000
[post yardrat] SSJ Goku : 187,500,000

SSJ future Gohan (1 arm) : 165,000,000
Future #17 (less than half) : 154,000,000

Generally I go with something like this, which end up stretching the gaps more and making future Trunks and post Yardrat Goku stronger and standing out more from Namek SSJ Goku and Mecha Freeza, as if there was a new SSJ tier by the arrival of future Trunks, with Namek SSJ Goku being already kind of fodder:

[Namek] SSJ Goku : 150,000,000

--------

Mecha Freeza : 155,000,000
Future Trunks SSJ : 200,000,000
[post yardrat] SSJ Goku : 225,000,000

[less than half] future #17 : 170,000,000
[1 arm] future SSJ Gohan : 185,000,000




I don't know though. I get the impression that SSJ is treated as too much of its own thing, without much regards for who is the SSJ.

So I think all scenarios are plausible. I don't think the story is too clear on that part, it has suggestions for more than one interpretation.

The androids saga, before Cell is introduced, too. It has conflicting evidence imo in regards to where Piccolo truly stands... I think DB sometimes had a tendency of leaning one way then inserting things, statement, that would give the opposite impression and question if the way the narrative was pointing too was indeed that way or not... It's tough.

 

[Spiral-Force]

Sure, but the fact Gohan stated that he made the clothes thinking on that making him just as strong as Goku --- but that it isn't easy like that --- would give Trunks an idea of a minimum threshold for Goku, I'd say. As in, at least about as strong as that Gohan, if not more so. I think he could take Gohan's statement in 2 ways --- 1) Gohan wanted an attribute to also, on a courage inquiry level, to be as strong as Goku, but it isn't easy like that, i.e, he still wasn't as strong as Goku... 2) he got up to Goku's level, but it isn't simply being as strong as Goku, as his father carries more than strength in him. Whichever way Trunks interpreted that, I think he wouldn't expect he himself to be stronger than Goku considering Bulma stated Trunks wasn't much different from Gohan... I think before leaving to the past, Trunks asked Bulma if Goku was really that strong, and she replied with a yes, but that there's something else besides just strength that made them have a warming confidence. So I think he was expecting both attributes from Goku, both from a power standpoint and one that stood out in regards to Goku's approach to things. I agree with Trunks holding back in that exchange though, he was just testing Goku in a somewhat superficial way, to have a little bit of a feeling on his power. It wasn't a representative of how it'd unfold if Trunks were serious. I just think that in spite of that, he can still get his expectations outdone by Goku's strength level. But yeah, my opinion.

True, but considering Trunks didn't know how strong [Namek arc] SSJ Goku was, I don't think it'd make much sense for him to bring up a power increase from when he was on Yardrat. It's not like Trunks would have that much of a basis on how much that meant when he was meeting and knowing Goku there.

Yes, he was in a full mentality of defeating Freeza. He didn't want to be teleported to Earth, saying to Kaio he would hold a grudge over him for the rest of his life if he didn't let him settle that... And also, allowing time for Freeza to power up... Kaio-sama even said that was no longer Goku, as we have pointed out before, but the SSJ warrior. I think he had the mentality to do his best to defeat Freeza when both were at 100% and if that meant killing Freeza right then and there, so be it... It's just when Freeza's power started dropping that his attitude seemed to change. He seemed to think that Freeza's humiliation, that the showcase of his blatant superiority over Freeza was already something as painful as death for Freeza --- having to live in with the fact he was outdone, defeated, by a race he always somewhat feared and despised. I think that may have been a soft moment from him when he mentions that to Trunks, as well as allowing Freeza to power up to 100% without just finishing it earlier with no regards to showing Freeza he was the best no matter how... Not necessarily in regards to him not going for the kill when both were 100%, before Freeza's power started dropping, from my PoV.

Sure, but he wanted to prove that he was better and stronger to Freeza when Freeza was at 100% imo. I think if he defeated Freeza before this latter was at his best, Freeza could still have some psychological excuse to atune for his hurt feelings --- "well, I wasn't at my best". From Goku's standpoint, of wishing to crush Freeza's soul, I think it'd make sense to want to carve that into Freeza when Freeza was operating at his best so Freeza would have no such excuse... dunno where, maybe in hell lol

I think it was partially a bravado from Gohan but one that carried a certain truth to it, as 17's following answer wasn't to dismiss Gohan as delusional based on him thinking that, but to lay out how he didn't even use half of his power, which had Gohan totally petrified. I think if that were a simple total false confidence, one in which he didn't even surpass the level 17 used against him before, the story would have better challenged that claim rather than having 17 lay out the cold hammer as a way to completely dismantle whatever hope Gohan had then. I agree that there weren't many methods for Gohan to grow in strength there as he and Trunks were mostly by themselves as powerful warriors, but it's not like he couldn't have considerable improvements either, I would say. They'd be limited gains in comparison to present Gohan training in the RoSaT... But future Trunks, for example... He went from having a rough sparring, one in which he was getting more tired, against base Gohan while he was a SSJ to slightly surpassing that same SSJ Gohan 3 years later... So they still had room to improve even with limited training resources there IMO. It seems that not having Gohan there impacted Trunks' growth, as Gohan initially stated, during their sparring, that Trunks would catch up to him in a few months, but upon Gohan's death, it took 3 years for him to slightly surpass Gohan. But even still, that's a big power jump... And depending on the level Gohan was at before losing his arm, I don't think it's far fetched for him to get a decent power jump in 1 year. I think that even though he was way above future Trunks, having a challenging sparring match, even if he just uses his base state vs Trunks using SSJ, that's still a way to push himself.

Future SSJ Gohan (2 arms) : 110,000,000
Android #17 (less than half power) : 140,000,000
Future SSJ Gohan (1 year later) : 150,000,000

Something like that could be feasible imo.

Pointing out power differences where applicable is commonplace in DBZ. Since that is not presented concerning SSJ Trunks and Goku -- and instead, equality was indicated -- this provides clarity as to where they stood. Fans that create PL lists seem rarely satisfied with their own numbers in the long run, often making changes and even replacing them for new lists as time goes by. Can you blame anyone for not finding it necessary to go that route?

Trunks and Goku's conversation lead to reference of the artificial humans, and how he requires help from the present Z Fighters. Now, more than ever, would be a good time to discuss strength improvement. If Goku made a strength gain, that would let Trunks know that progress is still being made despite the monumental accomplishment that Super Saiyan already is, giving some peace of mind.

The clearest and most important thing to take-away from the Goku/Frieza outcome is that Goku now recognizes his mistake of not killing him, and corrected that within the timeline in which he fought Mecha Frieza instead of Trunks. Getting into the weeds of where his moments of weakness was has been entertained enough I'd say. There comes a point where granularity can be redundant.

I don't see the interaction that way, no matter how you divide it. Future 17 always had a condescending tone with Gohan and never considered him a threat even with his newfound confidence. Bringing up Trunks' predicted growth actually accentuates my point, because the way it was delivered made Gohan's prospects look dull in comparison.

@GreatSaiyaman123 If Gohan did not reach his target of being as strong as Goku, a couple of factors stick out: 1) Wouldn't Gohan try to address that before getting into a deathmatch with an artificial human that exceeds his dad? 2) being stronger than 17 -- and by extension, 18 as well in Gohan's mind under your logic -- is not something I'd categorize as a mere glimpse of hope. It's about the following perception: hmm, Gohan is up there with the best Z Fighter ever, and might be able to progress further. Making the necessary increase is not guaranteed, but there's a bit of hope nonetheless.

 

[ahill1]

Pointing out power differences where applicable is commonplace in DBZ. Since that is not presented concerning SSJ Trunks and Goku -- and instead, equality was indicated -- this provides clarity as to where they stood. Fans that create PL lists seem rarely satisfied with their own numbers in the long run, often making changes and even replacing them for new lists as time goes by. Can you blame anyone for not finding it necessary to go that route?

Nah, I can't blame them, hence why I'm just presenting the way I see it as a possibility. I think even though Trunks was holding back, I see Trunks' statement to Goku being even better than the rumors also tied to his display of strength, even though it came from a Trunks that had no intention of going all out. I just don't think that Trunks having no intention to go all out means that can't be used to have a feeling of Goku's power placement, in a way, as the ease in which Goku defends himself from such attacks can also be taken into account even when the opponent isn't going for real. I don't think the difference is big at all, I think Goku sita just slightly above Trunks.

Trunks and Goku's conversation lead to reference of the artificial humans, and how he requires help from the present Z Fighters. Now, more than ever, would be a good time to discuss strength improvement. If Goku made a strength gain, that would let Trunks know that progress is still being made despite the monumental accomplishment that Super Saiyan already is, giving some peace of mind.

Well, I don't think Trunks thought of SSJ as a cap by then. I think such only came up 3 years later. Trunks stated knowing Goku's strength gives him a little hope for the upcoming battle in 3 years (tbh can't remember if Trunks said the word strength exactly and unfortunately I can't check the manga these days)... But he said knowing Goku gave him a little bit of hope. I don't think that would make sense if he didn't project gains from Goku in those 3 years. The fact future Trunks had improved drastically in the last 3 years also speaks to SSJ being still in a state of progression back then. I'd imagine that 3 years later they had taken their SSJs as far as they could and then, the surpassing the SSJ route came to mind, as if they had hit a temporary plateau that required new methods of training to break through it from my PoV.

The clearest and most important thing to take-away from the Goku/Frieza outcome is that Goku now recognizes his mistake of not killing him, and corrected that within the timeline in which he fought Mecha Frieza instead of Trunks. Getting into the weeds of where his moments of weakness was has been entertained enough I'd say. There comes a point where granularity can be redundant.

True, but in the Goku vs Freeza fight, we had actual moments in which we know Goku could definitely kill Freeza but has shown "mercy" traits... I think the process of powering up and later when Freeza's power started dropping were clear signs of these "softness" showing up, instead of the mindset of killing without hesitation. I just don't see any indication of it in the fight when both were at 100% personally.

I don't see the interaction that way, no matter how you divide it. Future 17 always had a condescending tone with Gohan and never considered him a threat even with his newfound confidence. Bringing up Trunks' predicted growth actually accentuates my point, because the way it was delivered made Gohan's prospects look dull in comparison.

Hmm, well fair enough, agree to disagree.

Well, Gohan's prospect may have taken into account he himself being there to attend Trunks' improvement. With him out of the picture, it may have taken more time than usual. Still though, the fact he had such high prospects may also speak to the fact he may have very well made big gains in the 1 year when he lost his arm.


@Spiral-Force

 

[ScottyFamalam]

If Goku made notable strength gains on Yardrat, that would be more exciting to hear about than him complaining about how weak the people on that planet were. Given who he was amongst, it's not surprising that he had nothing new to share as far as raw power goes.

Goku got a Zenkai boost from fighting Freeza

 

[Spiral-Force]

Nah, I can't blame them, hence why I'm just presenting the way I see it as a possibility. I think even though Trunks was holding back, I see Trunks' statement to Goku being even better than the rumors also tied to his display of strength, even though it came from a Trunks that had no intention of going all out. I just don't think that Trunks having no intention to go all out means that can't be used to have a feeling of Goku's power placement, in a way, as the ease in which Goku defends himself from such attacks can also be taken into account even when the opponent isn't going for real. I don't think the difference is big at all, I think Goku sita just slightly above Trunks.

Well, I don't think Trunks thought of SSJ as a cap by then. I think such only came up 3 years later. Trunks stated knowing Goku's strength gives him a little hope for the upcoming battle in 3 years (tbh can't remember if Trunks said the word strength exactly and unfortunately I can't check the manga these days)... But he said knowing Goku gave him a little bit of hope. I don't think that would make sense if he didn't project gains from Goku in those 3 years. The fact future Trunks had improved drastically in the last 3 years also speaks to SSJ being still in a state of progression back then. I'd imagine that 3 years later they had taken their SSJs as far as they could and then, the surpassing the SSJ route came to mind, as if they had hit a temporary plateau that required new methods of training to break through it from my PoV.

True, but in the Goku vs Freeza fight, we had actual moments in which we know Goku could definitely kill Freeza but has shown "mercy" traits... I think the process of powering up and later when Freeza's power started dropping were clear signs of these "softness" showing up, instead of the mindset of killing without hesitation. I just don't see any indication of it in the fight when both were at 100% personally.

Hmm, well fair enough, agree to disagree.

Well, Gohan's prospect may have taken into account he himself being there to attend Trunks' improvement. With him out of the picture, it may have taken more time than usual. Still though, the fact he had such high prospects may also speak to the fact he may have very well made big gains in the 1 year when he lost his arm.

I don't think Goku & Trunks' gains can be linked to Gohan. We saw those two completely distance themselves from the future powerscaling, and having more longevity within the story provides the incentive for them to go far. On the other hand, Gohan was very much still within the domain of the future scaling, significantly below the top tier. Considering Gohan had trust that things would work out even if he died, it appears he thought of Trunks' development highly even without him being there.

It's worth noting that Goku did express killing intentions in relation to their fully-powered fight. The "Die Frieza!" line that I mentioned came while they were battling at 100%. Goku also said that Frieza's about to die as the all out bout was commencing.

We also saw that 100% Frieza could keep up with Goku in both hand-to-hand and ki attacks for some time. While Frieza is at his best, it wasn't a walk in the park for Goku no matter where his mind was.

@ScottyFamalam

It looks as though that mechanism -- or word of it -- was largely dormant/absent in the story, with a narrow scope of reference. When a Saiyan is rewarded from this in any meaningful capacity, it's hammered into the audience that a gain was made. SSJ Goku also wasn't near death, physically speaking.

 

[ScottyFamalam]

Goku took a big beating when he was fighting Freeza, though. Nearly destroyed his body with 20x Kaioken and took another beating on top of that. If Vegeta got a Zenkai from Reec'm, then Goku would get one from Freeza.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

In the anime Goku arrived on Yardrat unsconscious.