How strong is Chi-Chi in the 23rd Budokai?

[ahill1]

Where do you place her?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Stronger than Cyborg Tao, a distant rival to Kuririn and Yamcha.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Far weaker than Kuririn and Yamcha as she couldn't track Galu and Tenshinhan, though still likely above the 22nd TB competition based on her confidence in taking on a Goku that oneshotted an improved Chappa. Taking into account her making Goku sweat and factoring in a loss in shouki to not make it inconsistent, she's probably not far off Cyborg Tao Pai Pai's level. I'd disagree with the idea of her feats being superior to his though as Tao was fast enough to catch Ten off guard with his hidden blade despite Tenshinhan's 3 eyes naturally amplifying his reactions.

 

[Keedounan]

Difficult to pinpoint her strength based on the manga alone. All we know is that she's skilled enough to earn a compliment from Muten Roshi, but still weak enough to be completely outclassed by Kuririn and Yamcha. Her only feats were done against a Goku who wasn't even fighting her seriously.

There's at least one official data that puts her below Muten Roshi (130 according to the Daizenshuu). Good enough for me.

 

[SSJ2]

Equal to Old Piccolo Daimao (without cape).

 

[Hector]

Initial Young Piccolo.

 

[ahill1]

Far weaker than Kuririn and Yamcha as she couldn't track Galu and Tenshinhan, though still likely above the 22nd TB competition based on her confidence in taking on a Goku that oneshotted an improved Chappa. Taking into account her making Goku sweat and factoring in a loss in shouki to not make it inconsistent, she's probably not far off Cyborg Tao Pai Pai's level. I'd disagree with the idea of her feats being superior to his though as Tao was fast enough to catch Ten off guard with his hidden blade despite Tenshinhan's 3 eyes naturally amplifying his reactions.

Does Chappa need to be above 22nd Budokai Goku though? He lost to a suppressed Goku.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Even assuming he didn't stick around to watch the finals, Chappa should've still taken into account a drastic power increase from Goku becoming an adult, and Chichi should've taken into account the absolute ease Goku oneshotted him with.

 

[ahill1]

@Captain Cadaver

That sounds a good baseline. Something like this then?

Goku (power used against Chappa, 22nd) -- 40
Goku (Chappa's estimations) -- 50
Chappa -- 60
Goku (vs Chappa) -- 90
ChiChi -- 90

Chi-Chi thought Goku would have a hard time, she didn't think she'd win.

It sucks though that the only line I can take and incorporate into my list is the Old Piccolo using less than half to trounce Goku. The many times stronger lines are downright impossible. Could I make a case tho that the "many times stronger" lines are more easily passed as hyperbole than the "less than half" line you think?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

The "several times stronger" and "less than half" lines needn't refer to Ki, seeing as how it's made very apparent gaps in Ki aren't really a linear baseline for measuring gaps in destructive capability, physical strength, speed, etc. unless Kaioken is involved. Take into account battle powers implying what's realistically a gap of over a million times like that between City busting Daimao and his Moon Busting son isn't even a 2x one. Assuming that such statements were purely referring to physical strength or more conventional energy values, there's no real reason for them to play a role in gauging the characters' Ki.

 

[ahill1]

The "several times stronger" and "less than half" lines needn't refer to Ki, seeing as how it's made very apparent gaps in Ki aren't really a linear baseline for measuring gaps in destructive capability, physical strength, speed, etc. unless Kaioken is involved. Take into account battle powers implying what's realistically a gap of over a million times like that between City busting Daimao and his Moon Busting son isn't even a 2x one. Assuming that such statements were purely referring to physical strength or more conventional energy values, there's no real reason for them to play a role in gauging the characters' Ki.

That's a fair point, but then when characters like future #17 says they used "less than half" power, should it not be taken in terms of battle power too? Or Vegeta stating his Oozaru multiplies his power by 10. Plus, chi seems to be the main source of Piccolo's power, shouldn't he have that in mind when performing those statements? When chi was less so of a thing, then sure.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

With Vegeta's example and many others in Z, that was a point in the series where Ki control that would be considered extraordinary in Part 1 had become the norm. Take into account how few characters could use bukujutsu in Part 1, a skill so basic even the weakest of Freeza's soldiers knew how to do it, or how Goku could initially only fire Ki through the Kamehameha until his training under Popo. The Ki control of Part 1 characters was very poor and rudimentary compared to later on in the series, and therefore wouldn't be something factored in to power statements prior to Z unless explicitly stated to be so. In the case of #17, leaving aside how he runs on a completely different source of power entirely, he'd be more familiar with power measurements through battle power (ie. Ki) or whatever metric Gero used for both his scanner and data.

 

[DBZAOTA482]

Definitely stronger than King Chappa (who Goku effortlessly defeated) since she was somewhat able to keep up with Suppressed Weighted Goku but weaker than the other finalists.

She's also arguably stronger than Chiaotzu and Yajirobe given how decisive the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai was compared to previous tournaments.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think it's clear Chi-Chi is fairly powerful when you compare her fight with Goku to Tenshinhan vs Tao. Goku probably had his shouki affected, but Tenshinhan also had his own drawbacks as he really didn't want to fight Tao either. Tao still couldn't even see Tenshinhan moving around him and got one shot. Chi-Chi pushed Goku back and was barely hurt by his Kiai. Granted a punch should be > a kiai, but Piccolo was still impressed by it's power and recognized it as one his own "demonic techniques".


I like to divide the fighters in tiers based on the levels of Piccolo Daimao's power.

FP Young Piccolo level: Tenshinhan, Weighted Goku
Initial Young Piccolo level: Kuririn, Yamcha
FP Old Piccolo level: Chi-Chi, Tao
<50% Old Piccolo level: Yajirobe, Chaozu
Initial Old Piccolo level: King Chappa

 

[SSJ2]

Agree with everything aside from Chaozu and maybe Yajirobe. Chaozu's defeat sowed doubt in Krillin/Yamcha's mind about Tenshinhan's chances against Tao. He should at least be ahead of 50% Old Piccolo imo.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yeah he's probably ahead of <50% Piccolo, there's a room of over 2x between that and 100% Piccolo. I just place him in that tier because he's logically a tier below Tao, who I have exactly = 100% Old Piccolo.

 

[ahill1]

I think it's also worth noting that Yajirobe witnessed the level of power <50% old Piccolo used to smash Goku and knowing Goku defeated Piccolo Daimao, still decided to attend the 23rd Budokai... Yajirobe doesn't seem the like to want to be clobbered badly, so I'd wager he could have surpassed <50% old Piccolo Daimao by the 23rd.

 

[ahill1]

With Vegeta's example and many others in Z, that was a point in the series where Ki control that would be considered extraordinary in Part 1 had become the norm. Take into account how few characters could use bukujutsu in Part 1, a skill so basic even the weakest of Freeza's soldiers knew how to do it, or how Goku could initially only fire Ki through the Kamehameha until his training under Popo. The Ki control of Part 1 characters was very poor and rudimentary compared to later on in the series, and therefore wouldn't be something factored in to power statements prior to Z unless explicitly stated to be so. In the case of #17, leaving aside how he runs on a completely different source of power entirely, he'd be more familiar with power measurements through battle power (ie. Ki) or whatever metric Gero used for both his scanner and data.

That goes back to my point before, then... the earlier statements of DB are more easily shrugged off, like Karin's one.

Would you say chi had become the norm by the Piccolo Daimao battle enough that old Piccolo's less than half power should be taken linearly to the battle power system?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think it's also worth noting that Yajirobe witnessed the level of power <50% old Piccolo used to smash Goku and knowing Goku defeated Piccolo Daimao, still decided to attend the 23rd Budokai... Yajirobe doesn't seem the like to want to be clobbered badly, so I'd wager he could have surpassed <50% old Piccolo Daimao by the 23rd.

Why would Yajirobe expect the Budokai to be filled with people as strong as Piccolo? It’s not like he wanted to win or anything.

 

[ahill1]

He knows Goku is there.