How strong is Freeza when he first fights Goku?

Kyo

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Shouldn’t this be effort based though? Freeza has a realm of power he can access based on his level of effort. When he initially attacks Goku it seems like he’s barely trying. I’d assume it’s the lowest power for the lowest effort.
Yes, it's effort based, I'm just saying he tried the same amount when he went at Goku.
You could say that he's not trying at all when he lunges at Goku, thinking he's just another regular Saiyan, with this lowest level of effort being his baseline of sorts. Maybe he ups the effort when firing his Death Beams, or maybe not even then.
I think what we're meant to take away, though, is that Goku won a quick exchange against the guy who was just whaling on Vegeta (i.e., the level of Freeza that was just whaling on Vegeta). Also, I just generally assume that once someone ups their effort, they stay there. You could argue that it makes sense for Cell to not try as hard against Gohan initially, for example, but most of the time we assume that Cell continues to use his "vs Goku" level of effort until he ups his speed.
 

FeatsofPower

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Yes, it's effort based, I'm just saying he tried the same amount when he went at Goku.
You could say that he's not trying at all when he lunges at Goku, thinking he's just another regular Saiyan, with this lowest level of effort being his baseline of sorts.
Yes, exactly. Freeza appears to be putting in the minimal effort against Goku as we can see he is able to rapidly increase his power without effort after the initial exchanges. Logically the minimal effort he showcased previously against Vegeta would be a good place to start. Always assume full power, but in this case, we work in reverse since we know Freeza showcases two levels superior to the one he used initially against Goku.

Maybe he ups the effort when firing his Death Beams, or maybe not even then.
The feats are consistent with each other. Someone who can easily evade and counter a strike then with effort deflecting the Death Beams should indicate Freeza did not change his power. Also, there is no evidence or suggestion that he did. Remember, Freeza's power is rather ambiguous at this time as well.

I think what we're meant to take away, though, is that Goku won a quick exchange against the guy who was just whaling on Vegeta (i.e., the level of Freeza that was just whaling on Vegeta).
Freeza indicated that he was going to use less power and work his way up with Vegeta. Vegeta also offered no resistance and was taken down in a few shots. If there is ever shoukki loss, it would be here. Although I agree with the sentiment in general, I take issue here because we know Freeza showcased three different levels against Goku. So there's only so far we can go but down. He undoubtedly utilized his full power to kick back the Final Burst Cannon, so we know his power only dropped from there.

Also, I just generally assume that once someone ups their effort, they stay there.
Agreed and for 99% of cases I would believe that to be the case. But we have good evidence to suggest Freeza did lower his power considering he states that he would and then we have evidence that Freeza was not using full power against Goku from the get-go, whereas he definitely did versus Vegeta.

You could argue that it makes sense for Cell to not try as hard against Gohan initially, for example, but most of the time we assume that Cell continues to use his "vs Goku" level of effort until he ups his speed.
There is no evidence to suggest otherwise though. Always assume full power is being used in both cases. With Cell, we have no reason to believe he's anything other than full power. With Freeza, we have several pieces of evidence to suggest otherwise.

Freeza (No Hands) > Freeza Warm Up > Freeza Initial vs Goku

We have proof that Freeza was not at his full power in his initial state. We have good evidence to believe that Freeza did use his full power to deflect Vegeta's blast and character statements suggesting that FInal Burst Cannon surpassed his "increased speed" state.
 

FeatsofPower

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Good points. I'll take them under consideration next time I reread the fights.
Thanks, always fun delving into the intricacies with you. You should reread them soon while the topic is still hot. If anyone can find something new in there at this point it's you.
 
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GreatSaiyaman123

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I’m not sure about Planet Buster > Freeza. The implication here seems to be that he’s doing a suicidal attack like he did on Earth. Piccolo’s reaction is to the fight overall, we don’t see his face when Freeza dodges Vegeta. They’re simply surprised Vegeta is no match.
 

FeatsofPower

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I’m not sure about Planet Buster > Freeza.
Why does Piccolo assume that Vegeta is going to kill Freeza and the planet. Do you see the term Planet Buster you are using? The entire point is that it is supposed to go through Freeza and kill everyone.
Piccolo’s reaction is to the fight overall
It's not, Piccolo is freaking out because Vegeta just had a freaking meltdown after being shown he's not a Super Saiyan, isn't thinking and just threw a thermonucler bomb at the planet they are all residing on.

Vegeta is a genocidal maniac that decides to end it all when he's been embarrassed too much.

First it was his Saiyan pride, now the idea of a Super Saiyan losing was too much for him to bear. This dude Vegeta is an absolute maniac. He's playing chicken with everyone's life.

They’re simply surprised Vegeta is no match.
I wonder why that is. Why would they think Vegeta is a match after he's clearly outclassed. Dude your debating skills have gotten terrible lately man. You are like Kazenshu level where guidebooks predetermine all your answers now. It's sad brother.
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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Why does Piccolo assume that Vegeta is going to kill Freeza and the planet. Do you see the term Planet Buster you are using? The entire point is that it is supposed to go through Freeza and kill everyone.

How is this any different from what Vegeta did on Earth? His Garlic Gun was either going to kill Goku or blow up the planet.

It's not, Piccolo is freaking out because Vegeta just had a freaking meltdown after being shown he's not a Super Saiyan, isn't thinking and just threw a thermonucler bomb at the planet they are all residing on.

Vegeta is a genocidal maniac that decides to end it all when he's been embarrassed too much.

First it was his Saiyan pride, now the idea of a Super Saiyan losing was too much for him to bear. This dude Vegeta is an absolute maniac. He's playing chicken with everyone's life.

I’m talking about Piccolo’s reaction after Freeza kicks it. They’re all talking about how powerless Vegeta is.

I wonder why that is. Why would they think Vegeta is a match after he's clearly outclassed. Dude your debating skills have gotten terrible lately man. You are like Kazenshu level where guidebooks predetermine all your answers now. It's sad brother.

You see, I just pulled a complete 180 from trying to defend those guidebook numbers. I’ll be back at full steam in a couple days.

This is a very obvious thing though. Vegeta gets stomped, everyone is surprised. This implies one power up, but you’re getting two here somehow. Doesn’t add up.
 

FeatsofPower

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How is this any different from what Vegeta did on Earth? His Garlic Gun was either going to kill Goku or blow up the planet.
It's the same. Which shows exactly what a psycho he is. Cell too. Some people when they are losing, just absolutely lose their mind. Freeza as well. But Cell and Freeza can survive in the vacuum of space. Vegeta can't. Which makes him an absolute sicko.

I’m talking about Piccolo’s reaction after Freeza kicks it. They’re all talking about how powerless Vegeta is.
Yeah, Freeza's power is just that tremendous. There were 3 levels of Freeza, just like we see with Jackie Chun, Cell, and every other character. The only reason people get blind to it is because that 3 million number for Base Goku makes them have temporary insanity.

You see, I just pulled a complete 180 from trying to defend those guidebook numbers. I’ll be back at full steam in a couple days.
I'm proud of you. Guidebook numbers are trash bro. We learned this in 2010 welcome back lol

This is a very obvious thing though. Vegeta gets stomped, everyone is surprised. This implies one power up, but you’re getting two here somehow. Doesn’t add up.
I don't know how else to explain man. It's like you are intentionally not following along.

Initial Freeza - Vegeta can see
Increased Speed Vegeta - Vegeta can't see
Kicking Back Blast- Vegeta and Piccolo surprised by Freeza's feat

You can't be surprised by Freeza's feat if you think he's stronger than the blast. Freeza ended up being stronger than they expected.

Actual Freeza > Vegeta's Blast > Expected Freeza
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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Initial Freeza - Vegeta can see
Increased speed - Increased speed
Kicking blast - shows true power

You're just misundertanding how narrative works. You trying to tell me they wouldn't bat an eye to Freeza wrecking their strongest warrior just because they always knew? And did they even know? Sure, power and speed correlate, but I'm sure you also know about the several statements talking about power and speed as different factors. Hell, in this same saga Piccolo thought he was faster than 3rd form Freeza and Goku was running circles around the stronger Ginyu.

It's still the same thing I said before. Does Goku's surprise here mean Piccolo (Real) > KHH > Piccolo (Expected)?
0143-015.png
 

FeatsofPower

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Initial Freeza - Vegeta can see
Increased speed - Increased speed
Kicking blast - shows true power
And Freeza's effort in increasing his speed is nowhere near what his full speed is. So...

You trying to tell me they wouldn't bat an eye to Freeza wrecking their strongest warrior just because they always knew?
No, they'd be in awe. But not surprised.

Sure, power and speed correlate, but I'm sure you also know about the several statements talking about power and speed as different factors.
They should always be even unless explicitly stated not to be. Freeza increasing his speed here doesn't mean he did not increase his power. You are throwing that interpretation in. When people say they power up, they also increase their speed, right? You accept this 99% of the time, so why is this different.

Hell, in this same saga Piccolo thought he was faster than 3rd form Freeza and Goku was running circles around the stronger Ginyu.
Travel speed and combat speed are not necessarily the same thing. Also, these fighters are being delusional. Super Saiyan Gohan did this with Majin Buu, Piccolo did this with 3rd Form Freeza. And so on. Burter is the fastest in the universe somehow with Ginyu and Freeza present. Not all things make sense, power and speed correlating does make sense though.

It's still the same thing I said before. Does Goku's surprise here mean Piccolo (Real) > KHH > Piccolo (Expected)?
Yes, Piccolo is much stronger than Goku expected. He expected to have at least something happen to Piccolo, when nothing happens, it means Piccolo was stronger than his expectation.

Remember how you agreed to the idea of Freeza being beyond 50% of his power based on Goku's expectation? Same thing here.
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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No, they'd be in awe. But not surprised.

That's basically the same thing.

They should always be even unless explicitly stated not to be. Freeza increasing his speed here doesn't mean he did not increase his power. You are throwing that interpretation in. When people say they power up, they also increase their speed, right? You accept this 99% of the time, so why is this different.

Then does he explicitly mention raising his speed? If he just said he got "a little serious" then it'd be a power up, but he goes out of his way to say he's only raising his speed, specially because he doesn't need power at all here.
 

FeatsofPower

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That's basically the same thing.
It's not. Awe means someone's power is so overwhelming it freezes you. Being surprised can come with shock and awe as well, but surprise comes because expectation has been exceeded.

When Kobe hits the game winner you are in shock and awe. When the underdog knocks out the champion, we are in shocke and awe but also surprise. These are different emotions.

Then does he explicitly mention raising his speed? If he just said he got "a little serious" then it'd be a power up, but he goes out of his way to say he's only raising his speed, specially because he doesn't need power at all here.
Because Vegeta claims he can see him. Vegeta brings up the speed issue. Freeza counters this and says you can see me, now you can't. You are bringing up power for no reason, you are completely blindside by this idea.

Same with Cell. THe speed is the issue against Gohan, so he talks about his real speed, which should be assumed to tag along with his real power. They are tied together.

They can't raise their speed without their power, it goes hand it hand. The dialogue might only specify speed because that's the topic at hand. Sheesh.
 

Pakl

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as strong as he was when he was beating Vegeta.

Final Form Freeza (raised speed) ~ Goku > Vegeta >\~ Initial Final Form Freeza
 

SSJ2

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Vegeta =< Initial 4th Form Freeza </< Freeza increased speed < Goku initial < Goku warm up = Freeza warm up/Freeza kicking blast < Goku FP =< Freeza no hands

In my opinion.
 

Fantastische Hure

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Vegeta =< Initial 4th Form Freeza </< Freeza increased speed < Goku initial < Goku warm up = Freeza warm up/Freeza kicking blast < Goku FP =< Freeza no hands

In my opinion.
No hands Freeza was easily evading Goku, wasn’t he? Goku only got one hit in. I’d think the gap in power’d be bigger there.
 

SSJ2

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Goku still has to be close enough where he can catch Freeza by surprise with his speed. Not to mention that he blatantly overpowered him at the end, hands or not.
 

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