How The Fandom Has Evolved
- Thread starter Yoshi
- Start date
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2016
- Messages
- 237
I think that Dragon Ball Z's move from syndication onto Cartoon Network (via the Toonami block) created a lot of casual fans. Keep in mind that up to that point, most fans in the US (and likely other English-speaking countries, but I wouldn't know) only knew what they saw on TV. The internet was very primitive and there were two ways to watch the series: on TV or buying home video.
So, information was limited. Because of the internet, fans started opening up a little. We knew it was a Japanese series, we knew it was different than what we saw on TV. Occasionally, someone would run into the manga at a bookstore.
I think it was a very die hard, but yet, casual audience. Everyone I knew loved it, but most people didn't venture beyond what was on TV.
The Dragon Ball series ended its TV run in the US at a point where it was hard for casual fans to follow it when it wasn't on TV. So, a big cluster of fans just faded away. And the ones that stayed were into the series beyond just a casual experience.
Simultaneously, the Dragon Ball video games were in full swing, which added a different subset of fans to the franchise. The internet was becoming much bigger, home video releases became much more practical, and now there were fans that could discover Dragon Ball in a totally different way than just watching it on TV.
Then, in 2010, a new crop of fans emerged, as Kai was now a thing, bringing in a new, younger audience. Then again with Super.
So, Dragon Ball in the US had several different types of fans that it strung along over the years. And as the older fans age and young fans are added to this fandom, there seems to be a clash sometimes.
I think that the older fans are under the impression that the series should've grown up with them. They were kids when they first fell in love with the series, they're adults now, the series should've evolved. While I am a super OG fan, I don't look at it like that. It's not like the people working on the series were kids when we were kids. But, that's the chief complaint I see from older fans. They wish that Super was more sophisticated. The young fans will be as young people are: they like to troll and they're very loose and flippant with their ideas--which most of us were guilty of too at some point.
I've seen newer fans trying to apply modern views to the clasic series, such as Muten Roshi's behavior or the lack of diversity among the characters. These are excellent arguments for the modern product, but for the classic series, the world was a much different place. Not saying it was better, but there was definitely much less thought put into those topics. Roshi's antics were just a funny little gag (though, I'm not saying I was ahead of my time or anything, but I never cared for these things and felt that they were a waste of time if nothing else).
Honestly, what I really think it comes down to is exposure and knowledge of the product. In the past, there was much less of both. Access to the series--especially the Japanese version, interviews, written work, etc.--was very limited. So discussions in the past sought knowledge. "What did Toriyama say about this? What happened in that arc? Was there a difference in the manga to this? Was this filler or not?" Now, the fans who want knowledge have it at their fingertips, so discussions now seek analysis of knowledge. "What did he mean by this? What does this detail say about that? Why do you think this contradiction exists?"
Personally, I think that the series is way too simple and was not written with the mindfulness that it would be analyzed so heavily. I think it was written as "This will be fun here" and then it moved on. So, I don't like to participate in discussions over power levels, power scaling, etc. But, to those that do, I get it. There's only so much you can discuss about a series that you have at your fingertips. I'm in another camp that it seems like the Kanzenshuu founders are in: we now have all the knowledge we wanted, we're not interested in analyzing something that we don't think is there, so we focus on more behind-the-scenes things like home video releases, production updates, etc. But most importantly, it's just a nice big slice of pure fun nostalgia.
I have to say it: as awesome as it is having the series in so many forms so readily available, kids will never understand the fun in digging into a series and uncovering its mystique like back when the internet was a black background with bad JPEGs and text. Getting to discover the series was much more fun than the series itself.
Sorry for the essay.
So, information was limited. Because of the internet, fans started opening up a little. We knew it was a Japanese series, we knew it was different than what we saw on TV. Occasionally, someone would run into the manga at a bookstore.
I think it was a very die hard, but yet, casual audience. Everyone I knew loved it, but most people didn't venture beyond what was on TV.
The Dragon Ball series ended its TV run in the US at a point where it was hard for casual fans to follow it when it wasn't on TV. So, a big cluster of fans just faded away. And the ones that stayed were into the series beyond just a casual experience.
Simultaneously, the Dragon Ball video games were in full swing, which added a different subset of fans to the franchise. The internet was becoming much bigger, home video releases became much more practical, and now there were fans that could discover Dragon Ball in a totally different way than just watching it on TV.
Then, in 2010, a new crop of fans emerged, as Kai was now a thing, bringing in a new, younger audience. Then again with Super.
So, Dragon Ball in the US had several different types of fans that it strung along over the years. And as the older fans age and young fans are added to this fandom, there seems to be a clash sometimes.
I think that the older fans are under the impression that the series should've grown up with them. They were kids when they first fell in love with the series, they're adults now, the series should've evolved. While I am a super OG fan, I don't look at it like that. It's not like the people working on the series were kids when we were kids. But, that's the chief complaint I see from older fans. They wish that Super was more sophisticated. The young fans will be as young people are: they like to troll and they're very loose and flippant with their ideas--which most of us were guilty of too at some point.
I've seen newer fans trying to apply modern views to the clasic series, such as Muten Roshi's behavior or the lack of diversity among the characters. These are excellent arguments for the modern product, but for the classic series, the world was a much different place. Not saying it was better, but there was definitely much less thought put into those topics. Roshi's antics were just a funny little gag (though, I'm not saying I was ahead of my time or anything, but I never cared for these things and felt that they were a waste of time if nothing else).
Honestly, what I really think it comes down to is exposure and knowledge of the product. In the past, there was much less of both. Access to the series--especially the Japanese version, interviews, written work, etc.--was very limited. So discussions in the past sought knowledge. "What did Toriyama say about this? What happened in that arc? Was there a difference in the manga to this? Was this filler or not?" Now, the fans who want knowledge have it at their fingertips, so discussions now seek analysis of knowledge. "What did he mean by this? What does this detail say about that? Why do you think this contradiction exists?"
Personally, I think that the series is way too simple and was not written with the mindfulness that it would be analyzed so heavily. I think it was written as "This will be fun here" and then it moved on. So, I don't like to participate in discussions over power levels, power scaling, etc. But, to those that do, I get it. There's only so much you can discuss about a series that you have at your fingertips. I'm in another camp that it seems like the Kanzenshuu founders are in: we now have all the knowledge we wanted, we're not interested in analyzing something that we don't think is there, so we focus on more behind-the-scenes things like home video releases, production updates, etc. But most importantly, it's just a nice big slice of pure fun nostalgia.
I have to say it: as awesome as it is having the series in so many forms so readily available, kids will never understand the fun in digging into a series and uncovering its mystique like back when the internet was a black background with bad JPEGs and text. Getting to discover the series was much more fun than the series itself.
Sorry for the essay.
- Joined
- May 30, 2015
- Messages
- 1,287
- Age
- 28
That was because it's like TFS said "Yamcha doesn't appear often enough". Krillin was a major player up till the Freeza arc despite being far weaker than pretty much any alien fighter, but I'm pretty sure most fans like Krillin even if they make fun of him.
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2023
- Messages
- 442
It wasn't.
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2015
- Messages
- 14,402
I appreciate Kanzenshuu for the info they put together and all the combined compilations of different things, but me, as an old fan, am not into that as I personally, and I think many others too, don't care much about off side things that aren't in the manga, like many and many guidebooks take on things, interviews from lots of ppl who participated into the series, and things that are a lot more out of universe in the sense of casting, characters dubbers, and that. I personally care way more about in universe, manga centered discussions. Those other things, the most I'd venture into is soundtracks... But even then, it isn't a conversation that can evolve that much. Either one will say what they liked about the soundtracks, but it's a matter of opinion, I don't think it can evolve much beyond "hmm I think this one fit better".
One thing I'd like out of universe would be analysing things from the old manga under new lens, like portrayal of certain jokes, portrayal of groups, and how, in retrospect, they would be seen nowadays. I think it isn't only a thing with new fans, I think many old fans think certain things weren't that well done, but understand that the time it was made in is a valid alibi for it.
And while I'm in agreement with the supported and endorsed view of the Kanzenshuu members, most members actually, on these more contentious topics, their approach is what I don't like, since there isn't respect for whoever has a different take. It seems that ppl posting there, even though they imo are in the right side, are emotional to the point of making a fool out of other's views and preferences which imo kills the point of the debate.
The Roshi thread for example... I think the gags are in bad taste and I wish it wouldn't be depicted. However, I also understand that time it was done, the culture and all of it play valid reasons for it being there and I have no problem with whoever appreciates it being there. I'd disagree but I wouldn't invest into it emotionally (unless the person said that I was being incongruent or inconsistent in not liking it, for example). There though, if you express that you appreciate the jokes in regards to the time it was made and don't think it is that condemning of a thing, there would be a swarming of members kinda ridiculing the person... Which is en environment that just makes ppl there who don't partake into a certain view 100% uncomfortable. So while it's nice they like to focus on these aspects, and even though I agree with the standard position there on these topics, the tune defended by the moderation to deal with whoever has a different approach is harsh and little conducive for these topics, as it seems they're created specifically to have a view reinforced and the other ridiculed.
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2024
- Messages
- 196
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2015
- Messages
- 9,959
- Age
- 31
DBZF had a lot of normal people. I'm sure most are still DBZ fans.
DBZ fandom is huge, if we're not limiting to people on online dbz communities. So many offline people and sportspeople are DBZ fans.
I don't pay attention to the newer fans. But I think in-depth power level debates aren't so common with newer fans? Probably because they aren't on the platforms for it (whatsapp, reddit aren't great for back and forth walls of text with scans) and because Super makes less sense PL-wise.
I do think modern forums in general are more degen, which is something I've said before. Forums used to be much closer to the mainstream of social media, so you had a wider mix of people.
DBZ fandom is huge, if we're not limiting to people on online dbz communities. So many offline people and sportspeople are DBZ fans.
I don't pay attention to the newer fans. But I think in-depth power level debates aren't so common with newer fans? Probably because they aren't on the platforms for it (whatsapp, reddit aren't great for back and forth walls of text with scans) and because Super makes less sense PL-wise.
I do think modern forums in general are more degen, which is something I've said before. Forums used to be much closer to the mainstream of social media, so you had a wider mix of people.
- Joined
- May 30, 2015
- Messages
- 28,296
- Age
- 17
This is the best post I've read all year. I appreciate your longevity.
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2016
- Messages
- 237
That's fair. Though, that's what I'm into. I think that my love for the series extends beyond its four corners. I do like a good music discussion.
I can get that some people feel that the Kanzenshuu crew gives off a bit of a "holier than thou" vibe. And while I think we've all been guilty of eyerolling posts in the name of having fun and being sucked into being a keyboard Warrior, I respect your view of them.
Thank you!
I think that the real biggest change was when the Japanese version became more available (in no small part thanks to Funimation including it on their home video release) and people who pretended to have watched the Japanese version actually got to do it.
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2023
- Messages
- 442
They don't.
It was degenerate garbage back then and it's degenerate garbage now.
Likewise, Dragon Ball sucked back then and it sucks now.
- Joined
- May 30, 2015
- Messages
- 30,968
The West technically had access to the Viz manga as early as the 90s. It just wasn't as mainstream as the anime.
- Joined
- Aug 13, 2016
- Messages
- 21,499
I think the terms "plot armor" and "asspull" get taken more seriously now, though people still hold onto their non-existent multipliers.
- Joined
- May 31, 2015
- Messages
- 855
You can look back at old forum posts and I remember there was a serious anti-anime, pro-manga purism movement. Every time someone referenced the anime, the go-to trump card was "didn't happen in the manga," and it would often work to end the debate. Now there's more of a coexistence movement for at least treating each as valid in a parallel universe sense, if not going for amalgamation.
There has also been ebb and flow to power scale bloat. Around the 2010s there was a lot of pro-bloat power level lists, them with Battle of Gods we got a surge of pro-minimalism power scaling with the Freeza > base Goku thing. In recent years thanks in part to power scaling YouTubers there is a return to bloat scaling.
Especially recently people are on the hunt for any scan to one-up each other but back in the day most people only cared about the manga and everything else was popcorn entertainment.
There has also been ebb and flow to power scale bloat. Around the 2010s there was a lot of pro-bloat power level lists, them with Battle of Gods we got a surge of pro-minimalism power scaling with the Freeza > base Goku thing. In recent years thanks in part to power scaling YouTubers there is a return to bloat scaling.
Especially recently people are on the hunt for any scan to one-up each other but back in the day most people only cared about the manga and everything else was popcorn entertainment.
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2023
- Messages
- 442
rec.arts.anime - Google Groups
groups.google.com
rec.arts.manga - Google Groups
groups.google.com
alt.fan.dragonball - Google Groups
groups.google.com
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2016
- Messages
- 3,434
At the core, there have been two main categories: (1) casual fans, and (2) fans that like to dig into things a bit more; powers, plot, characterization, and so on. However, there's plenty more resources compared to before. Category 1, for example, has spawned reaction channels capable of amassing an audience of that type of fan. Category 2 fans can browse the internet for discussions relating to their topic of interest, or start that discussion themselves. Been like this for a while now, but it's worth mentioning that fans have access to the series in full, rather than having to wait as it was coming out; with all the stalling that goes on via powering up or otherwise, that's no small thing.
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2015
- Messages
- 14,402
I also think back when I joined and until a few years later, there was a funnier atmosphere to debating, as it seemed more competitive. People would like evaluate some poster based on their debating skillzzz, topics about talking about a debater skill would be way more common back then. While that was kinda immature and more like an ego boost, it also worked in the sense that people would like to appear more as good posters and go well in debates. There was aggression and toxic attitude too, I think that time wasn't exempt from that at all, though I think the fact we were younger in general, and I think not only that, but there being more obsessive with scaling debaters back then for some reason, created a n entertaining atmosphere for some.
The thing of "better debater match ups, who would you like to see debating??" that while lame looking in retrospect, seems that immature thing that made things kinda competitive and more fun back then. I think it wasn't solely about access to information and many guidebooks, but the general attitude seems to have changed. I think much because part of the crew didn't change so we just matured, and part because new members didn't have that same power levels and power debates focus... Perhaps because as the older fans changed, the environment changed and they weren't caught on that type of debate as well.
The thing of "better debater match ups, who would you like to see debating??" that while lame looking in retrospect, seems that immature thing that made things kinda competitive and more fun back then. I think it wasn't solely about access to information and many guidebooks, but the general attitude seems to have changed. I think much because part of the crew didn't change so we just matured, and part because new members didn't have that same power levels and power debates focus... Perhaps because as the older fans changed, the environment changed and they weren't caught on that type of debate as well.
