How would you counter this point?

ahill1

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These points were made by Voice_of_Reason from neoseeker, showing Gohan was a SSJ2 against Dabra. How would you counter them?



Dabura is established to be at Cell's level of power:

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Dabura's blast lands clean on Gohan, knocking him into the sea. Yet aside from his clothing being tattered, he emerges without as much as a scratch to show for it. Babidi confirms that Dabura isn't able to inflict any significant damage on Gohan:

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In the Cell Games, SSJ Gohan is hit by attacks from Cell that would appear much weaker, yet are enough to cause superficial damage:

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Gohan in the Majin Buu arc is expressed to be much weaker than his Cell Games self yet he is able to tank an attack from someone stated to be of Cell's level. This cannot happen if they were close in strength, as the above clearly demonstrates. There has to be a significant gap, with Gohan holding a considerable power advantage. Whatever way you look at it, SSJ1 power is not enough for that, much less a SSJ1 that's portrayed to be weak. Gohan was only able to tank Cell's attacks after becoming SSJ2:

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Objective evidence further confirms Gohan holding a significant power advantage against Dabura:

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After the fight had ended, Goku gives Gohan a senzu bean, not for a reason that he had taken damage, but simply because he used up too much stamina:

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The battle is relatively short, and Daizenshuu 2 establishes that what is shown in the manga is from the beginning. Gohan does not display the use of any Ki attacks or take any significant damage, nothing that would've depleted his energy so fast. This contradicts the very advantage using the SSJ1 form in battle was established to possess:

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Regular Super Saiyan was conditioned to replace their base state. Gohan's earlier SSJ appearances in the arc demonstrate that he is just as natural within the form, and even uses it to train with Goten in the month leading up to the tournament. If Gohan had used that form against Dabura he wouldn't have gassed, that is for certain. When you compare this to his Super Saiyan 2 state, where the tournament was the first time he had used it after 7 years, the answer is clear as day to what form he was using.
 

Papasmurf

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I'd just compare the damage Cell inflicted with a small finger beam to how little damage Dabra inflicted with that blast. Super Saiyan 2 level fighters are stated to inflict great damage within a short period of time (Goku and Vegeta), and this was seen in the Cell Games with SPC and Gohan. Dabra hardly hurt Gohan and seems to only have tired him out by whipping out his sword and causing Gohan to exert a lot of effort into breaking it, and Gohan's skill was so rusty that base Goten nearly hit him with rocks of all things.

Making Super Saiyan the natural state also doesn't mean you don't eat up energy fighting, as seen when Goku was even further weakened from fighting Cell for a short while after firing his KHH
 

ahill1

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Papasmurf said:
I'd just compare the damage Cell inflicted with a small finger beam to how little damage Dabra inflicted with that blast.
Well, VoR believes Gohan held a considerable advantage over Dabra, hence why the latter wasn't able to inflict significant damage on Gohan. Gohan was also kinda of caught by surprise by SPC's new powers, as himself stated his didn't believe Cell's power increased this much.
Papasmurf said:
Making Super Saiyan the natural state also doesn't mean you don't eat up energy fighting, as seen when Goku was even further weakened from fighting Cell for a short while after firing his KHH
But Gohan vs Dabra was a relatively short battle, whereas Gohan didn't resort to chi blasts, unlike Goku, who fired a full power KHH and a bunch of chi blasts at Cell.
 

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I don't think Gohan's edge on Dabra was decisive. He was stronger, but if he was by a lot, Vegeta wouldn't just say "Dabra isn't an opponent that can't be beat," he'd say he should be easily beaten if Gohan weren't so rusty.

Not using blasts doesn't mean you don't get tired. The 23rd had some of the most ridiculous stamina feats in the series, where Goku lost almost no energy after the Super KHH, yet he was stated to be getting tired around the time Kami intervened from fist fighting for the most part.
 

ahill1

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Papasmurf said:
I don't think Gohan's edge on Dabra was decisive. He was stronger, but if he was by a lot, Vegeta wouldn't just say "Dabra isn't an opponent that can't be beat," he'd say he should be easily beaten if Gohan weren't so rusty.

Not using blasts doesn't mean you don't get tired. The 23rd had some of the most ridiculous stamina feats in the series, where Goku lost almost no energy after the Super KHH, yet he was stated to be getting tired around the time Kami intervened from fist fighting for the most part.

But Gohan "tanking" Dabra's blast (to which Goku called magic and concluded Dabra is tougher/stronger than he thought) implies he should be, no?

Gohan vs Dabra was a relatively short battle and I don't see how Gohan would get tired with MSSJ, which works like their base states. In the Goku vs Cell fight Goku didn't show any signs of fatigue until his full power Kamehameha.
 

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He didn't "tank" it, he was sent back a few dozen feet from it and said "dammit," implying that hurt. Tanking would be what 2nd form Freeza did with Vegeta's off guard blast.

Gohan was panting only after he broke the sword like I said, he wasn't even tired after being blasted. Having a sword is a pretty decent advantage as seen with Tao vs. Goku (post Karin), and he had to exert a lot of effort into breaking it. He was also obviously unskilled, which would've caused him to exert even more effort into catching that blade.
 

ahill1

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Papasmurf said:
He didn't "tank" it, he was sent back a few dozen feet from it and said "dammit," implying that hurt. Tanking would be what 2nd form Freeza did with Vegeta's off guard blast.
Yeah, hence why I put it into " ". How strong do you have Dabra?
Papasmurf said:
Gohan was panting only after he broke the sword like I said
And later Goku gave a senzu to him because he used up a lot of stamina, what would be pretty odd if he were in a natural form, which he has plenty of control over it.
 

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If Gohan's a 14 Dabra'd be a 12.5 or 13 I guess. I'm thinking they're still similar in power like base Goku and Yakon, or normal Zarbon and Dodoria.

The fight would make no sense if Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2. The form is stated to damage extremely fast, which is what made Gohan realize Goku and Vegeta were fighting in it, and that wasn't happening at all even though Dabra is pretty close to Gohan no matter how you look at it. I go with Gohan being too rusty/out of shape to regulate stamina loss. Gohan wasn't even tired at all after thrashing Cell and the Cell Jr.s while clearly in the SSJ2 state, so rust explains it.
 

ahill1

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Papasmurf said:
If Gohan's a 14 Dabra'd be a 12.5 or 13 I guess. I'm thinking they're still similar in power like base Goku and Yakon, or normal Zarbon and Dodoria.
I mean compared to Perfect Cell.
Papasmurf said:
The fight would make no sense if Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2. The form is stated to damage extremely fast, which is what made Gohan realize Goku and Vegeta were fighting in it, and that wasn't happening at all even though Dabra is pretty close to Gohan no matter how you look at it. I go with Gohan being too rusty/out of shape to regulate stamina loss. Gohan wasn't even tired at all after thrashing Cell and the Cell Jr.s while clearly in the SSJ2 state, so rust explains it.
So you think Gohan is so rusty he lost the control over the MSSJ?
 

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I think Dabra's only comparable to the full speed Cell that fought a hesitating Gohan, maybe. Or the one Goku fought.

I think he's at least able to maintain the form without strain as seen when he was naturally maintaining it to one-shot some weak bank robbers and training with base Goten, but he's just too unskilled to regulate stamina loss in a fight. Like how Popo and Kami said Goku and Yamcha's movements were too wasteful or something like that.
 

ahill1

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Papasmurf said:
I think Dabra's only comparable to the full speed Cell that fought a hesitating Gohan
If you think Gohan was SSJ vs Dabra it'd make Dabra equal to SSJ Gohan (Cell Games) and Teen Gohan even stronger than that, contradicting Vegeta's statement of Gohan losing power over the 7 years.
Papasmurf said:
Or the one Goku fought.
But the one who fought Goku could still do cosmetic damages to Goku, whereas Dabra was unable to do it against a weaker version of Gohan.
 

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I usually go by Gohan not exerting himself except with that kick. Cell couldn't hurt Gohan at all with an attack he intended to kill him with
 

Evil Vegeta

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The battle had already been going on for awhile before we see it. A page after Gohan challenged Dabra alone, Roshi says something was going on and mentioned sensing a huge Chi at a far distance or something. It wouldn't make sense for Bobbidi or Vegeta to be that frustrated if the battle literally just started like a min ago. It had to have been going on for awhile.

Dabra is weak. He only needs to be as strong as powered-up Cell because he doesn't display much of anything beyond that.
 

Papasmurf

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Yeah the manga narrator says Gohan was fighting Dabra while Satan was busy celebrating his victory in the Budokai, so the Daiz is inaccurate in this case. There's not much to speculate about what was unseen tho.
 

Evil Vegeta

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I just look at them as equals with Gohan having an advantage. Gohan doesn't look all that excited fighting him another round, so I definitely wouldn't say he's a lot stronger. It'd also defeat the purpose of Goku telling Gohan to bring out all of his power if he was more than enough already.
 

Papasmurf

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But don't forget, magic makes Dabra "way way stronger" than Goku expected :troll
 

Evil Vegeta

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I guess that fireball amped his power. He used his illusion, spit, and sword, so maybe he had more fireballs like the one he used.

In that case, I guess you could say Gohan>>>>Dabra.

Nah. Dabra still sucks.
 

ahill1

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Papasmurf said:
I usually go by Gohan not exerting himself except with that kick. Cell couldn't hurt Gohan at all with an attack he intended to kill him with
But Cell was able to give Gohan cosmetic damage, while Dabra wasn't against a weaker Gohan.
 

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Gohan got cosmetic damage, he just wasn't bleeding. But Gohan was stated to not have lost any ki from Cell's assault either, so that's no different than #19 making Vegeta's lip bleed despite not doing damage.
 

Evil Vegeta

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Forgot to mention this: since VoR adheres to the Daiz, then Super Saiyan Teen Gohan could be equal to Super Saiyan Kid Gohan because it said his strength never changed. The only thing that made him weaker was his inability to gain power from anger.
 
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